WAR's 2.1 changes.

[Februs]

Pre-3.0, the changes made to War didn't seem like too much because War lacked a dps stance. Now that they have one, I can kind of see why some people consider some of those changes to be a bit much because they laid the ground work for War's current state of perfection. That said, I don't think I would ever advocate for a direct nerf or reversion of skills, especially because some of those changes were made for a very, VERY, good reason. War were essentially useless before 2.1. SE tried to pass it off for a while, but they were losing so many tanks on a day to day basis that the game would have probably shut down if they didn't do something to fix it.

That said, one thing that has always bothered me is: if SE is capable of doing such dramatic and sweeping reforms for War, WHY HAVE THE REFUSED TO DO ANYTHING CLOSE TO THE SAME THING FOR PLD?! The last "major adjustments" don't even count, because they were a joke and a smack in the face to the job.

[Reynhart]

That said, one thing that has always bothered me is: if SE is capable of doing such dramatic and sweeping reforms for War, WHY HAVE THE REFUSED TO DO ANYTHING CLOSE TO THE SAME THING FOR PLD?! The last "major adjustments" don't even count, because they were a joke and a smack in the face to the job.

Simple. WAR is a tank and in 2.0, it lacks the basic tools for tanking. PLD already has all it needs to tank. On top of that, WAR is supposed to be the tank that do damage, so PLD needs to stay below it. And in this game, nothing matters except how much damage you do (In case the numerous "We want a parser" threads wasn't enough hint)

[ADVSS]

Simple. WAR is a tank and in 2.0, it lacks the basic tools for tanking. PLD already has all it needs to tank. On top of that, WAR is supposed to be the tank that do damage, so PLD needs to stay below it. And in this game, nothing matters except how much damage you do (In case the numerous "We want a parser" threads wasn't enough hint)

I'm all for keeping warrior as is, and if it has to be top dps tank then so be it, but the other two need boosts in utility and mitigation to make up for it, imo. They always adjust the dps in a similar fashion basing damage on utility(or how many positionals etc), it shouldnt even be that hard for them to do.Basically, warrior should be a metric that they use, highest damage? great, ok so tanks offering less than that need to make it up with much more utility. mitigation is almost equal between the three, so I wonder what they could do to keep the balance? By all means do not nerf warrior but take a hard look at how it works and try to do something to bring the other two up in areas other than dps.

[Februs]

Simple. WAR is a tank and in 2.0, it lacks the basic tools for tanking. PLD already has all it needs to tank. On top of that, WAR is supposed to be the tank that do damage, so PLD needs to stay below it.

So, Pld just isn't broken enough to warrant changes? lol. I can just picture the way that conversation goes at SE development meetings: "Well, yeah. Pld is sh**, but ... at least it's not as bad as War was in 2.0 ..."
The thing is, I can't really accept this as a valid reason to not make adequate adjustments because of this right here:

In this game, nothing matters except how much damage you do (In case the numerous "We want a parser" threads wasn't enough hint)

Pld has already gone through a (near) War level crisis, and it happened at the start of 3.21. The Dps checks of Gordias Savage and Bismark Extreme made it very clear that Pld was damn near unusable in that content. Raid groups were actually kicking Pld's out of the party until they were already over-geared, and PF's were specifying Role Requirements for Wars and Drks. The result was that people started to abandon the job wholesale. Even long time Pld's were forced to take up Drk or War just so they could stay active in the current content. SE "fixed" this problem by doing two things. The first was making "massive adjustments" to Pld's kit ... which turned out to be the smallest possible adjustments they could have made and literally changed next to nothing. The second was reducing the dps checks of future content so that Pld could bring their specific style of defensive tanking along and not be left out ... only that didn't really do anything either, because Pld's superior defense is the most well known lie in the game.

Even before Gordias Savage came out, the community had already proved with extensive testing that Pld's "superior" defense was actually not superior in any way to the other two tanks. So, SE isn't really fooling anyone if they think this is a valid excuse for not putting in the time and effort it would take to actually make Pld function even half as well as Drk's and War's do. The fact that the vast majority of the Tanking community have switched their mains to Wars and Drks should have been proof enough that something was wrong ... but, like you said, it's not as bad as War back in 2.0.

SE was genuinely at risk of losing subscriptions over that, and it was hot off the heels of the failure of the initial release of FFxiv. That's a lot of pressure to make a fix, and they're not likely to feel that pressure again now that the game more or less functions. I guess it SE isn't at risk of losing subscription numbers, then they consider it to be fine and "working as intended," even if it's utter crap.

[Lyth]

Pld has already gone through a (near) War level crisis, and it happened at the start of 3.21. The Dps checks of Gordias Savage and Bismark Extreme made it very clear that Pld was damn near unusable in that content. Raid groups were actually kicking Pld's out of the party until they were already over-geared, and PF's were specifying Role Requirements for Wars and Drks. The result was that people started to abandon the job wholesale. Even long time Pld's were forced to take up Drk or War just so they could stay active in the current content.

This isn't really how it happened. The world first clears of Bismark, Ravana, as well as A1S and A2S were all done with a PLD MT. Bear in mind that this was simply an extension of PLD spending the entirety of 2.x as the de facto MT. In contrast, there was a fairly widespread belief, in this forum included, that DRK had no place in the standard two-tank setup, and people were trying to play it like a sub-par WAR.

In a way, Gordias was necessary. Watching the world first clears of A3S and A4S occur with a non-PLD MT made the wider player-base start to experiment with their raid compositions, not just with DRK MTs, but with WAR MTs as well. This also freed up people who were required to play PLD as MT to switch out to tank classes that they genuinely wanted to play. It was a liberating moment.

HW made PLD more complex, and WAR less so. PLD has gone from one combo to juggling three, with more nuanced aggro and cooldown management and support skills. WAR, on the other hand, sticks to its pre-HW two combo rotation, and no new mechanics are added for the player to manage.

All of the changes post-HW simplify WAR. Deliverance allows you to stance dance without losing stacks, so you rarely have to "hold" stacks for defensive purposes. Even if you accidently hit a cooldown out of stance, you now gain stacks for them. Paeon alleviates the problems associated with mistiming berserk during add pick-up phases. Equilibrium is effectively two very powerful skills for the price of one. Press a button, any button, even incorrectly, and something awesome is still bound to happen. Such is the power of skill "synergy". The appeal is obvious.

Most of the "trade-offs" involved in playing WAR from 2.x have effectively been removed, and it is extremely rare now to end up backing yourself into a corner through mismanaging your resources, like you can on the other two tanks. Is it surprising, then, that some people swapped out from PLD? Challenge is good, if only to ensure that the people playing the job genuinely want to do so. It's better this way.

[Xenosan]

grr, copy the link address, http://i.imgur.com/6LpWbw3.png , don't know why it won't show up on the forum, too big? this is a first. It's a screenshot of the WoD encounter. So uh, spoiler but not really.

btw I made a mistake earlier, it's Y'shtola, not the tarutrau person. She also /eyerolls at that Bard's attack, is that another jab SE?

...

I get concerned when the only litmus test for job performance we consider is the FOM raid. They're important, relevant, but there's so much catering and pandering of these trials to meet the standard the tanks are currently at instead of tuning tanks to mold to universal content. Adjusting content to pander to the jobs instead of adjusting jobs to fluid content is dangerous.

WAR is 10~ ilvls or so lower than my DRK, but I can solo Hunts with it with my monitor turned off, but PLD I'm managing MP tightly - if that's even enough (odd, didn't think MP was 'their thing'), and with DRK unless SEater is crit'ing reliably I'm usually SooL against the harder hitting marks. I'm critical of PLD's lack of AOE for this. It's got nothing to do with any instance really. But a Job without an AOE this far into game life is like a job not having a Sprint or Jump (jump as in the spacebar, not the thing DRGS do).

Was mentioned how HW solved WAR shortcomings. PLD spends all group content 16-50 struggling with AOE aggro, practically their ethos throughout, even post-50 content. After HW, has that changed? Some things aren't about balance or homogenizing, just necessities of the game.

The reduction in DMG output for Shield Oath, couldn't they come up with that one I dunno - 2 years ago? When PLD was facing the same problems (how many burn phase wipes would otherwise be clears)? No, back then it was just the aggro modifiers that were the problem. Yeah, PLD can't hold mobs from bursting DPSs in T4 or trials, so just up the aggro modifier, jack up ShO aggro! Hmm not enough, up Flashes modifier, still not enough, do that one again. Then up CoSs because it still isn't enough.. 2.55 PLD got a breath of fresh air, min/max secondaries, but then kill DET on my AAs of Sword Oath. Okay adjust RoH modifier (god forbid the potency), Now you're reducing ShO dmg output reduction. What's next, 100 potency dmg to Flash /raaant For AoE still be PLDs thing, just .. what year is it?

[Februs]

This isn't really how it happened. The world first clears of Bismark, Ravana, as well as A1S and A2S were all done with a PLD MT. Bear in mind that this was simply an extension of PLD spending the entirety of 2.x as the de facto MT. In contrast, there was a fairly widespread belief, in this forum included, that DRK had no place in the standard two-tank setup, and people were trying to play it like a sub-par WAR.

I'm don't mean to suggest that Pld couldn't do the content. Saying it was "damn near unplayable" is probably an overstatement. I did my first Bis Ex clear at roughly item level 175-180, so I know it was doable; however, to say that it was completely undesirable in raiding parties is not a stretch in the least.

You're right to point out that Drk needed to make a strong impression. It was an untested tank, and people were still unsure of it. Even here in the forums, the general opinion about the "best way" to play Drk and manage its skills changed dramatically between 3.0 and 3.2; so, it's not surprising that the first tier of Heavensward Raids was tailored to Drks. That said, needing to make a strong impression for the new job does not mean that they needed to throw an old job under the bus, and that's exactly what they did. Could Pld's clear the content? Sure, but it didn't take very long for people to figure out that they brought absolutely nothing useful to the party and that the meta had shifted from War-Pld to War-Drk.

I wouldn't call that a "liberating moment." Why? Because it would have only been liberating to people who didn't want to play Pld in the first place, and no one ever had to. There was always an alternative to Pld. If you didn't want to play it (even before 3.0) you could always play as a War. Even when Pld was perceived to be the "best" MT, no one was booting Wars out of the party. Pld's, on the other hand, were actively being ostracized just for liking the job. I can only speak for my server, but it was very common for Pld's to be forced to switch jobs or get the boot, and PF's specifically requested Drk's and Wars, or even double Wars. Pld fell by the wayside. It got so bad at one point that I actually ran into people in DF who made comments like, "A PLD! I haven't seen one in months!" Or, "Oh wow! There's still some of you around!" It's not that all those people genuinely wanted to play another job. They could have done that at any time. A lot of them (even now) still want to play as a Pld, but they were being actively punished for doing so.

Worse still, the pre-conceived notions about MT and OT positions were basically cemented in stone tablets and dubbed: The Tank Commandments. War's got so unbelievably shafted down OT pipeline that we'll need an army of plungers to get them out of there. Some of them fell into the bizarre mentality that they're actually a Dps class, and that attitude has persisted to this day (even after their dmg nerf). Thankfully, the Dps checks of the current content has stemmed the flow of the great Pld purge, but both Pld and Drk are still considered MT. Considering the OT position is practically taboo for either of them. Personally, I don't see that as a good thing or a better state of affairs.

[Lyth]

I wouldn't call that a "liberating moment." Why? Because it would have only been liberating to people who didn't want to play Pld in the first place, and no one ever had to. There was always an alternative to Pld. If you didn't want to play it (even before 3.0) you could always play as a War.

Prior to Gordias, the general player perception was that if you wanted to MT, you had to play PLD.

There were some groups which played around with WAR MTs once the fights were on farm, and in a few cases of WAR MTs during savage SCOB. I learned to MT T9 during progression on WAR. But convincing people to try it out for the first time was a struggle, because of job preconceptions.

Playing WAR in 2.x was fine if you preferred OT, and some fights (FCOB in particular) had really fun OT roles. But in some cases, the fights were simplified by solo-tanking, and you didn't even get that opportunity. Many WARs quickly found themselves as part time MNKs in T8.

There's definitely been progress made. I don't really see the OT role opening up as much unless PLD/DRK becomes a more viable combo, which stems in part from the SE/DE buff. But the addition of a fourth tank in the future could balance that role out. For now, I'm content with the fact that as a DRK/PLD, I can MT fights on multiple tank classes, without needing to debate over the matter with the rest of the group. I still prefer DRK unless I see a compelling reason to switch out, but that's another story.

[Februs]

Prior to Gordias, the general player perception was that if you wanted to MT, you had to play PLD.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. I know very well that the perception was Pld = MT, back in the coil days. However, perception does not dictate reality.

Firstly, that perception was generally propagated by healers who were afraid to heal War's in the MT position. They preferred a more stable Hp bar, rather than the ups and downs of a War's self-healing styled mitigation, and that's completely fair because it allowed them more time to pay attention to other things and actually learn the fights. Given that the coil fights were extremely heavy on mechanics, it's not surprising that most groups preferred to learn with a Pld as MT. However that attitude only persisted as long as people were learning. Once they got comfortable with the fights, things changed.

Secondly, and this is the main point, no one was kicking Wars out of parties just because Pld was the preferred MT. Wars were pigeon holed as the OT, sure, but 1) that hasn't changed, and 2) they weren't being cock blocked from the content just because they were Wars. During Gordias, Pld's were being shunned from even going into the raid. MT or OT made no difference. No one wanted them around. PF's were explicitly stating, "Drk or War or gtfo." The only time War's suffered even close to similar treatment was before their adjustments in 2.1, and it wasn't as big a deal back then because they were only just introducing the first raid, ever.

Again, I'm not saying that the treatment of War's as the designated OT didn't suck back in the coil days. It did suck (though, if that's a standing complaint, then it's one that Wars should still be complaining about today). However, not having the opportunity to MT in a raid doesn't compare to not having the opportunity to even play that raid, which is exactly what happened to Pld's until they were already over-geared for the content. Having the state of tanking be thrown that far out of balance is pretty indefensible, in my opinion, and given that War's are still being pigeon holed into the OT position, worse than ever before, I can't say a lot of progress has been made.