DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

[Drkdays]

1k health IS a negligible amount at lv 60. It's basically 1 or 2 hits from a lv 60 enemy. And you haven't proven to me anything. It's not as cut and dry simple as you seem to think.

[ADVSS]

i use unleash ona boss if enhanced unleash is proc'd here we go: bloodweapon in grit or
rename souleater to blood strike effect stays the same
reprisal takes the same cd reset as low blow, DA reset/force proc it when its needed as ot or mt
rename Sole Survivor to Aspir, reduce cd timer slightly, do like abysal drain except mp granted per mob hit(low potency or no potency idc) DA effect adds a 2s silence to enemies, if you care at all
Carve n spit is now named SoulEater, normal potency near where old DA effect is or lower(300ish?), new DA effect is life surge force a crit and get health back./End.

[Fluffernuff]

1k health IS a negligible amount at lv 60. It's basically 1 or 2 hits from a lv 60 enemy. And you haven't proven to me anything. It's not as cut and dry simple as you seem to think.

sadly, i'm going to have to agree with jackfross here. a tank that takes more damage is in every respects a worse tank. period.
a tank's role. their job. their DESIGN.... is to REDUCE damage. to MITIGATE it. any tank that fails to do so, or would actually take MORE damage is a worse tank. that's how it works. you could do 3k more damage than the other tanks, but youre a worse TANK. in fact, we already have those already. we call them Dragoons. THAT is cut and dry. THAT is that simple. math is math.

if that concept is too hard to grasp, then... none of us can help.

and the point before was, in order for a tank to consume HP, the health cost would have to be so negligible that it might as well be costless. again, so theyre not a worthless tank. I dont agree with making DP "costless" just because new players dont use it right. not for the sake of "lore" that doesnt exist in THIS game (Eorzea is NOT Ivalice, here). I'd rather my Tank go OoM then them flat out killing themselves with their own abilities.

DRKs are penalized enough for sucking. they drop down to some of the worst damage output, they lose like half of their abilities, they cant generate as much emnity...
and now you're trying to propose that we have the threat of killing ourselves. i can't and don't agree with that as a positive change

DRKs are already have an identity crisis. we dont have a niche. we dont have any real defining gimmicks. I'd rather it NOT be something that makes us worthless and a laughingstock. lots of things need addressed, fixed, or changed. but killing ourselves isn't one.


I actually have an idea for you. a small.... "trial" for your proposal. go run through some easy content... EX roulette or something as a GLADIATOR or MARAUDER... and use Blood For Blood on cooldown. thats a LESSER form of what youre suggesting for us

[Chronons]

A Tank with a skill that costs health to use is immediately unequivocally undeniably a worse Tank than the next Tank who DOESN'T spend health to do damage.

While I agree completely with you on the usage of Dark Passenger, dont WARs do this every time they step out of Defiance while tanking? A loss of 25% extra HP for the chance to do greater dps.

[Fluffernuff]

While I agree completely with you on the usage of Dark Passenger, dont WARs do this every time they step out of Defiance while tanking? A loss of 25% extra HP for the chance to do greater dps.

ehhh.. losing maximum HP isnt the same as taking damage. if i have 30K hp in defiance, and 24k in deliverance... i have 24k HP in deliverance. I'll be at 100% HP if i drop defiance at any point above that 24k HP. no HP "lost". its the same deal with Thrill of Battle. thats not the same thing as just... taking 6k damage from my own skill. also as a "toggle", you could look at it as yes, "losing" that 6k HP for a new skillset. but at the same time, i'm still not actually taking that 6K every time i stance dance either.
your HP could be any number of places as a warrior. so even then, it doesnt translate to the same thing.

the closest thing we have to giving up HP directly for damage right now is Blood for Blood. which, last i checked, was really freakin' bad on gladiators and marauders

[Drkdays]

It's close to the same thing, like stance dancing there are already ways to sacrifice safety for additional DPS. Willingly losing 1k health (at most) for extra DPS certainly does'nt make a tank bad and it's wrong to label them so. You should no more consider a tank who stance dances despite the risk bad. Providing additional DPS without having to be as concerned about the cost of mana for adding or dropping grit as well as the current cost of using DP would make it less of a strain to use when off tanking for example. Not to mention losing health this way would be less risky than stance dancing since you wouldn't be losing defense, although that option would exist as well to optimize DPS.

[Fluffernuff]

"close to" and "are" are different things, sadly. If warrior ACTUALLY took 25% of their HP as damage for swapping to deliverance, well.... Warrior certainly wouldnt be where it is right now. and sacrificing safety, again, isnt the same as taking damage. it's not "Safe" to lose drop a 20% damage reduction for 33% damage dealt, you're right. but compare that to taking 20% of your maximum HP for an ability that does... hm.. lets say 7K damage. thats not a TANK anymore. DRK would be a DPS at that point, and UNABLE to tank. theres the key difference. it would be the worst TANK. all for what? not having MP costs?

none of us are/were judging individual people or tactics while tanking. but nothing any tanks have is or can be compared to "take X damage". risk and reward doesnt end at "take more damage to do more damage" for tanks.

even if we WERE to say swap the cost of DP to HP. lets make it a fair conversion. im not all that great geard, but i have roughly 4 times my MP in health.. so lets convert the cost 4:1. 884x4=3536 HP lost. for a 150 potency ability. thats about 800-900 damage for me. even if we were to make it a 1:1 conversion, im still doing less damage than i spent to use it. meanwhile, i have only 2 tools to restore HP, and none of them are buffs.
DRK isnt designed around losing HP. we have blood price, blood weapon, syphon strike, and carve and spit to restore MP, though. reliably. constantly. smoothly. MP management was never the issue with DRK

[JackFross]

I started out just saying "it's silly" but that didn't convince them, so I had to break out the hard-and-fast reason why it would be a completely nonsense change.

I'll try to lay this out more clearly, since DrkDays seems to constantly miss the point even when others reword it.

1. Dark Passenger's Mana cost is not a problem - it does not impact your ability to use other cooldowns unless you mismanage your resource.

2. If you change this perfectly-fine Mana cost into a health cost instead, you will do one of two things:
-- Dark Passenger now costs x% of your max health (like maybe 10% or something to make it actually a cost) - and suddenly no Dark Knight worth his salt will ever cast this spell while taking damage from enemies. If you do, you will immediately be labeled dumb and/or shit, because it's absolutely ludicrous to sacrifice your health while a boss or trash mobs is/are wailing on you.
-- Dark Passenger now costs some arbitrarily small amount of health like 1000, as DrkDays suggests. A combination of DP>SE will make you take 0 damage from that attack - in fact, you'd get a net heal. And now you've completely effectively removed the cost from the attack in exchange for 20 potency (since you'll be using SE [260] instead of Del [280] on that GCD). Strict loss for no substantial gain.

3. The entire argument can be summed up as "Dark Passenger's Mana cost makes it very easy to mismanage my resource and have too little Mana remaining when I need it for a skill such as Grit or Dark Arts+Dark Mind." Maybe I'm elitist - go ahead and call me that. But in a discussion about changing the mechanics of a class, you should never consider the situations in which it can be misused and handled improperly - you need to only consider the optimal case. Catering for the people who struggle to maintain BP and DA+SE and DA+CaS rather than those who know how to play the Job is the wrong way to design things.

[IndigoHawk]

Bottom line:
A Tank with a skill that costs health to use is immediately unequivocally undeniably a worse Tank than the next Tank who DOESN'T spend health to do damage."

Oh really. I'm sure every warrior that changes from defiance to deliverance and immediately loses a large chunk of health (as max health decreases) is immediately unequivocally undeniably worse than another tank.
Oh wait, warrior is a very good tank in FFXIV.

The situation isn't as simple as you're trying to make it. It would certainly be possible to allow dark knights to drain their own health to attack. Of course there would need to be some way to balance it, like increased incoming healing or a combo skill or cooldown that restores health. So in the end the health draining tank would probably feel about the same as any other tank. I agree on that part.

[HoodRat]

Maybe I'm elitist - go ahead and call me that.

You filthy non-plunge-pulling elitist.

:3