DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

[Drkdays]

Does anyone else think it would be cool if Dark Passenger cost health instead of mana? For one thing, it might make DRK DPS a little bit easier since using DP while tanking is a somewhat risky business because of the mana cost versus the additional DPS. As is it cost a great deal of mana (especially accompanied by Dark Arts) that could more effectively be used on other abilities such as Dark Arts plus Abyssal Drain on groups of enemies since it does comparable damage plus the heal. Why not then make DP cost health instead? Also it would be more lore friendly since in games past Dark Knights sacrificed their health to cast similar group damaging attacks. And, honestly, losing 1k health seems less unpleasant to me when I'm already being swarmed by enemies than losing 1k mana for OK ish group damage.

[Ragology]

I think right now the closest DRK has to sacrificing health for more damage is dropping grit.

If DRK gets a DPS stance with the next expansion I think that's where the devs will add more health sacrificing moves. Perhaps in this stance every combo finisher damages yourself, or maybe you take damage over time while in the stance. I dunno.

[MagiusNecros]

I'd be A OK with it since my PIE stacking ass will enjoy a much cheaper Dark Dance Passenger. And it would fulfill that area clearing attack that came with an HP cost. I mean closest we have to that sort of thing is a BLM popping Convert.

[JackFross]

The complaint of mana cost on the single cheapest expenditure of Mana in the Dark Knight's arsenal - the skill with the highest mana per potency yield across all skills (save arguably Carve and Spit) - that's silly. Especially for groups of mobs, where your Mana is literally infinite for 15s, during which time a DA+DP (which is 250 - more than twice as much potency as Abyssal Drain (120), for the record) is essentially cost-less for one of the strongest AoE skills that any Job has access to - on a thirty second cooldown.

Please.

It's stronger than Holy and Flare and Painflare (200) and Dragonfire Dive (240) and Geirskogul (200) and Elixir Field (220) and Katon (180) and Doton (240). It loses to Assize (300), Deathflare (400), Decimate (280), Kassatsu-Katon/Doton (270/360), and Flaming Arrow (350) - and that's it!

So let's make it stronger by having it become essentially costless. 1000 health out of 25000 is literally nothing - actually negligible.

[MagiusNecros]

All the MP costs on Dark are cheap with the exception of Grit and Dark Arts IMO.

I imagine AF3 Flare is still more powerful then DADP.

Unless you can hit each enemy for 4k each it falls short imo. I've yet to see my flares hit at it's weakest 3k.

[Drkdays]

It's stronger than...

All those other abilities are on DPS classes where ap strongly affects the damage output so you can't really compare it to a tank skill since the results are totally different. They might share similar potency but will never get the same results. In any case this is about saving mana for other skills, not about the skill itself. Also I said it's more lore friendly for a class that traditionally cost health to attack rather than mana. This would be a more of a union of the old method with the new. Also it does cost more than its worth to use it on cool down because there are other abilities that are more efficient to use as a tank that, while not necessarily optimizing DPS, would benefit enmity and Yes you can certainly use it as you said, especially with mana regen skills, but the point is that it'd be better for the overall condition of drk tanking if it cost health instead. All gain, no loss.

[JackFross]

All those other abilities are on DPS classes where ap strongly affects the damage output so you can't really compare it to a tank skill since the results are totally different. They might share similar potency but will never get the same results. In any case this is about saving mana for other skills, not about the skill itself. Also I said it's more lore friendly for a class that traditionally cost health to attack rather than mana. This would be a more of a union of the old method with the new. Also it does cost more than its worth to use it on cool down because there are other abilities that are more efficient to use as a tank that, while not necessarily optimizing DPS, would benefit enmity and Yes you can certainly use it as you said, especially with mana regen skills, but the point is that it'd be better for the overall condition of drk tanking if it cost health instead. All gain, no loss.

False.

The bolded is a fully, completely, 100% false statement.

Now, let's assume you are in Grit, and we will compare two different uses of Mana - Dark Passenger and Dark Arts + Power Slash. We'll assume the two scenarios:

Hard > Spinning > Passenger > Power Slash
Hard > Spinning > Dark Arts > Power Slash

What's the difference in Mana cost per Enmity generated?
Now, Power Slash has a 5.5x enmity multiplier. With Dark Arts, this rises to 6.5x. Ignoring Grit, because it'd affect both scenarios identically and not change the proportions I'll show at the end here. So let's compare this.

The easiest way to look at this is that Dark Arts will give you 6.5x - 5.5x = 1x Power Slash damage enmity = 300 potency of enmity for 1768 Mana.

Compare that to pressing Dark Passenger -> 150 potency of enmity for 884 Mana.

Now, I'm no rocket surgeon, but these two efficiencies look to be exactly identical. Two Dark Passengers over 30s would give 300 potency of enmity for a cost of 1768 Mana - precisely the exact same amount of additional enmity gained from wasting a Dark Arts on your Power Slash.

In other words: TRADING two casts of Dark Passenger for 1 cast of DA+Power Slash nets you the exact same enmity bonus in the long run while also simultaneously causing you to deal 300 less potency than you would have if you used your Mana in a more intelligent way.


But, basically, the bottom line is you're sacrificing your Mana in the wrong places. Trade a DA+SE for your DA+Tank garbage - don't sacrifice a DA+CaS or DP for tank garbage that is both less efficient and totally unnecessary in every situation.

Please note that the +300 potency of enmity you get from a DA+PS gets buffed to +810 enmity in Grit, which is pretty sweet until you realize that that's the difference between DA+PS and regular PS. You're boosting the enmity of that one hit of the combo from 4455 to 5265 - a gain of 18% on the hit, and a gain of ~12% on the combo. It may seem worth it at a glance, but it's such a drastic mana sink for nothing of note, imho.


And, the excuse of "It's lore-friendly" is nonsense, because that's not how Dark Knight works in this game and it's an argument I'm not gonna dignify with a response. It's off-base and meaningless in a discussion of changing Job mechanics. "It should be this way" is a subjective argument which has no place when trying to make a logical point about a skill.

[Jim_Berry]

But, basically, the bottom line is you're sacrificing your Mana in the wrong places. Trade a DA+SE for your DA+Tank garbage - don't sacrifice a DA+CaS or DP for tank garbage that is both less efficient and totally unnecessary in every situation.

In my defense, after my initial pull with Unmend and Unleash, I do the Dark Arts + Power Slash combo for the boost of enmity so I can drop Grit for a while. My MP is back with a hug return from other sources should I need Grit to help with a heavy hit from a mob.

[JackFross]

That is still +745.2 potency of enmity for the cost of two shots of Dark Passenger or an entire DA+SE that you're throwing out. The problem with this thinking, imho, is that using a DA+PS will not preclude you from using any amount of Power Slashes down the road to maintain hate out of Grit. Like - 745.2 potency is still less than 40% of 1 non-grit Power Slash (not including its friend, Spinning Slash). And that's where the main issue comes in, I feel, in this.

But, really - that decision comes down to personal preference.

The part that bothers me - the part that makes this difficult to agree with or consider as an option, is that you're considering this DA+PS to be used at the expense of Dark Passenger, for some reason, when Dark Passenger gives more enmity gain than a single DA+SE for half the price. Like, if you want to rank Mana v Enmity gains, it goes:

1. DA+CaS = +350 for 1 DA
2. DA+PS = +300 for 1 DA
3. DP = +150 for 0.5 DA -> +300 for 1 DA (but over 30s, so below DA+PS)
4. DA+SE = +120 for 1 DA

So, basically, why are you trading Dark Passenger for Power Slash when Enmity is your concern? That's what I don't understand. Your main argument is that there's "better things to spend mana on to do tank stuff" and I've pretty much debunked all of those points. Yeah, DA+DM has a purpose for certain tank busters here and there, but even that falls into the same category - WHY are you sacrificing DARK PASSENGER for these additional Dark Arts casts? WHY are you NOT sacrificing DA+SE?

And that's why I find this entire argument moot - in light of the fact that DP is both one of your most efficient uses of Mana for both offense AND defense, how can you sit here and say that the mana cost makes it not worth using? It outright baffles me.


I will, however, concede the point that DA+DP is less efficient than regular Abyssal Drain, but it stands to reason that - if you're gonna cast a DA during Blood Price and you're also gonna cast a DP... you should absolutely be doing DA+DP, since the +100 potency is a strict gain over the heal from AD - and you should be getting 2-3 DA's per BP anyway in large pulls (aka the only time DA+AD is actually useful/worth the Mana)

[Drkdays]

I never said dark arts plus power slash... Unleash, Dark arts plus Abyssal drain, having darkside constantly active without relying on blood price, even basic combo's cost mp and drk go through mana very fast! And again you assume for some reason that I never use it. I do, by thunder! It's just tedious for it to cost a chunk of mp, health cost would be cooler. And it makes perfect sense for it to be more lore friendly. Obviously that's not how this game works...hence the union of old ideas and new. I'm hardly the first to remember how it worked in previous games.