Can anyone give me some PLD tips?

[Februs]

Ooooh, so that's what you meant. But, Shield swipe in 2.0 had enmity bonus? weren't those just dmg + pacification effect? I am almost sure enmity to Shield Swipe was given in 3.0!

Exactly right, which is why so many people missed out on how glorious it was for such a short time.

Before 3.0, it was next to useless, unless of course you needed to pacify something (assuming that "something" could be pacified). After 3.0 it was given an enmity bonus, but it was still a GCD, so with Bullwark you could literally spam it and replace every hit in your combo with a 210 potency strike that always generated enmity as well as pacified a mob. In mob tanking only, it was pretty advantageous. With Bulwark, you could go through an encounter and, quite literally, never need to use Flash again after your first cast. However, Pld's could only do this in the blissfully short time between 3.0 and 3.1. Once 3.1 came around, they took it off the GCD and it became an instant dps boost in boss encounters, but it lost a lot of mob utility at the same time. It was a give take thing.

[Februs]

Lots of good points, but...

Fair enough. I think we can put the issue to rest now. It's been a pretty solid discussion. Just for the sake of some follow up:

(seen here). I have both characters linked to this account... Not sure if it's possible to see both in my profile or whatever.

That makes WAAAAAY more sense. I was legitimately baffled at that one.

I originally used 2.5 seconds as my starter because I typically don't like to assume that everyone has their skp up to snuff. They might primary a different tank, after all. I had to adjust my value when I started doing the actual field tests, but when you posted one that was almost half of mine I assumed it was yours and got very confused.

Never looked to deeply into it all. That's pretty neat stuff!

Right? It actually made me interested in doing a full breakdown of how it works. Unfortunately, that would take quite a bit of time, and I don't think I could accumulate all of the data without resorting to .... lets just say "frowned upon" methods.

And here's where you just go completely off the rails arguing against something I never said. We were specifically talking about a 40s encounter against 3 mobs when I mentioned 39 autos.

You misunderstanding a little here. The reason I deviated from your 40s/3 mob example is because the examples I was using above were not calculated theory. They were actual pulls. I did a set of Ex roul runs, recorded the footage, slowed it down, and manually counted each auto attack as they hit, the timing they hit with, and what number of them would have been mitigated based on the application of RoH. Then I tallied the total number of dmg. Sadly, every damn Ex roul I got during this period was Lost City Ex (I swear the game goes in spurts. Last week I only got Anti-tower >.> ). The first pull of that dungeon is 4 (including the rhino beetle), so I went with that.

It was a relatively small sample. I only included about 6 runs split evenly (3 RoH and 3 GB/RA rotations) in my actual sample. In the end, though, the results for total dmg sustained were not vastly different regardless of which method I used. The values were near enough to equal that it just didn't matter, so long as I held enmity. What I did find, though, was that the behavior of the Dps made a much larger difference. This also ties into your next point about Goring Blade.

Goring Blade is stronger than Rage of Halone the instant the Goring Blade attack does damage.

Firstly, I never intended to imply that Goring Blade wasn't stronger than RoH in potency. That's not even a question. The question was the total value of Dps being drawn from the move over Royal Authority, assuming that the DoT gets clipped by the Mob's untimely death. In most cases, you are correct. In my test runs I found that GB was the preferable choice; however, in the cases of extreme dps it may not be. It just depends on how narrow your enmity lead is, and if the additional Flash required to keep it would count as a loss to the overall damage provided.

This is fair, but it's worthwhile to note that the blind effect seen here can be done using Goring Blade as well.

Again, though. we're talking additional flashes here and with a lot of variance on Dps. With the average Dps team found in DF, sure. You can spread those flashes out and chances are your enmity will hold pretty firmly. With exceptional Dps? Different story. Without establishing a lead on hate, you run the risk of losing it. To get a lead on hate using a Dps rotation, you have to burn your own dodge rate by clipping the effect of blind, casting it early. It's also worth noting that another contributing factor was that the mitigation of RoH stacks with your other CD's and passive defenses. It's not just working by itself. If you parry or block, for example, you're basically reducing 20% of your incoming dmg, and the leftover damage is nerfed by the 10% provided by RoH. It all added up.

Whoooosh. That's the sound of my point flying over your head.

Not at all. I get what you were saying on single target dps, and I don't dispute it. I use a similar method when boss tanking, and, in most cases, I don't have any trouble maintaining hate on bosses when using a Dps rotation.

It was mob tanking, where I was questioning if there wasn't a difference to be found, and I was merely pointing out that the actual damage dealt does play a role. A lot of people seem to ignore the fact that the damage output of a character can vary their enmity. This is one of the reasons why War's could strip enmity off of Pld's and Drk's while in the OT position before the latest set of patches. Fell Cleave bursts don't have an enmity bonus, but they did out-pace the baseline enmity provided by the standard rotations of Pld's and Drk's. The same can be said when comparing Drk and Pld. Over a sustained period of time, one clearly does more dps than the other. Pld gets more enmity boosts per turns of the GCD, but their overall lower dps evens things out. I don't think this is a big secret, either. It's pretty well common knowledge that Pld's walk an enmity tight-wire, and it's one of the reasons why all 3 tanks have to stay as geared as possible when running with competent or exceptional dps.

The major flaw with the testing you did was that you were testing with DF

This was actually the point. Real World Data. If you stack the deck, you get stacked results. Given that most Ex Roul runs done by most tanks are done in DF, stacked results weren't the most favourable outcome. Instead, what I was looking for was an average. I could have grabbed 3 of my friends and done these test, but that would not have been an accurate reflection on the common experience in DF. As it happens, the first 2 out of your listed controls were maintained, because, for some strange reason, DF was broken and only ever put me into Lost City ... which was annoying, buy ir kept the pull sizes and mob types identical across my runs. My buffs and defenses were also near identical (as close as they could be), because I was always tanking and I ran the dungeon the same way each time. I was completely constant in each set of runs (RoH runs vs Dps runs). The only thing that varied was the dps and healer, and I stand by that those two things should vary, because the majority of people do not run with a fixed party. The fact is that DF does, on a day to day basis, see a dramatic variance in the type of Dps provided during a run. The only way to account for that random element is to attempt an average across it, not skew the data by fixing it to a single point.

The only thing that I would say was a downside in these tests was that the sample size was, admittedly, small. 6 runs is not enough to establish a reliable average; though, it was more than enough to get an idea of what to expect, should a larger sample be pooled.

In the end, like I said, it comes down to comfort and party composition. Given how utterly minimal the difference is between the two methods, I can't say that I tilt in favour of one way or the other. I, myself, vary my own method accordingly, and I can't say that I stick to one religiously. It just depends on what you think is needed for the random circumstances that DF throws you into ... unless, of course, you are running a pre-made. In which case, all bets are off, since that's a totally different animal altogether.

[JackFross]

Fair enough. I think we can put the issue to rest now. It's been a pretty solid discussion. Just for the sake of some follow up:

I just have a few like single-sentence remarks to add... And one doozy re: your scientific process.

You misunderstanding a little here. The reason I deviated from your 40s/3 mob example is because the examples I was using above were not calculated theory. They were actual pulls.
Yeah, I get that, but then you were comparing real world data with different scenarios to calculated data with a specific scenario. The 39 hits was specifically the max you'd see in a 40s 3 mob pull. Rightly so, with +1 mob there (for 4 total), the max would be 52 - which wasn't exceeded by your 4-mob trials. I was just upset/offended by the way you worded things, making it seem like my calculations were incorrect, when your findings corroborated those results.

You can spread those flashes out and chances are your enmity will hold pretty firmly. With exceptional Dps? Different story.
Definitely fair to some extent, but missing the main point. Even in the RoH scenario, one mob eats just a Fast Blade. And in the case of more than 3 mobs, you're gonna need an additional Flash either way.

This is one of the reasons why War's could strip enmity off of Pld's and Drk's while in the OT position before the latest set of patches. Fell Cleave bursts don't have an enmity bonus, but they did out-pace the baseline enmity provided by the standard rotations of Pld's and Drk's.
The only time this was (and still is) an issue was when both tanks were out of tank stance. And the reason has very very little to do with Fell Cleave - and much more to do with using Butcher's Block under Berserk. It's not about DPS - it's about using enmity moves when you're not in the Main Tank position.

This was actually the point. Real World Data. If you stack the deck, you get stacked results.
That's not at all what I was implying. The differences afforded by swapping from RoH to GB and back are small in terms of time saved (which, yes, means it's not super amazing wow better) and, as such, you're not gonna be able to notice them when you have one group of DPS doing 2k combined and another where the SMN is pulling 2.5 on his own. That's the issue with testing in DF.

It's how science works. If you want to test 1 variable (how much time is shaved off a fight by using GB instead of RoH?) you need to keep all other variables which affect this one constant between attempts. If you have variable kill times based on DPS being different and doing different things you cannot draw any meaningful conclusions about your impact on the encounter. It's not "stacked results" - it's "viable results which actually mean something in this particular context."

The only way to account for that random element is to attempt an average across it, not skew the data by fixing it to a single point.
You do not need to account for the variance in raid DPS when calculating or figuring out the impact of your DPS on the clear time of an encounter. You need to get a control group of DPS who will do X DPS in Y encounter and then run that encounter Z times using RoH and using GB. Compare the kill times where the only variable is the one you aim to measure and come away with an actual conclusion that means something.

Having variances all over the place in party composition, player skill, and raid dps and then saying "I didn't notice a reasonable difference between pulls where I used GB and where I used RoH" is completely meaningless! Of COURSE you couldn't notice - of COURSE the DPS being better makes a larger difference. That's not the point. It's not the important factor that I was discussing when comparing the two strategies with respect to mitigated damage. You can't get a reasonable approximation of how much additional damage is being mitigated by GB in comparison to RoH without all other variables which affect this difference remaining constant.

Examples of other variables you may not have tracked:
1. Did anyone cast Virus, Disable, Rend Mind, Dismantle on the adds?
2. Did you ever get an AST throwing Bole at you?
3. Did you ever get an AST using Balance, Arrow, etc?
4. Did you have SMN/SCH using Shadowflare?
5. Did a BLM drop Lethargy? (probably not, but still) Maybe Apocatastasis?

And then of course the variance in healer DPS and DPS DPS.


tl;dr: The math says - flat out - Goring Blade combos will amount to more mitigation in the long run by trimming 3+ seconds off encounters simply by using it rather than not. None of your testing remotely disproves this. x_x

[Destous]

if you're not horribly unlucky with block procs.

If you're not horribly unlucky with procs. If the procs don't happen during a Shield Swipe CD. If the encounter procs any blocks at all. If you don't have to use Sheltron for a tankbuster while Shield Swipe is on CD.

They gave it a CD and a potency that would warrant not having to deal with getting a proc, and then kept it as a proc. Shield Swipe should make PLDs drool even more when an encounter is going to proc a lot of blocks, but at least half of the procs usually get wasted due to Shield Swipe being on CD. On top of that, PLDs now have nothing to counteract TP drain for longer fights. Terrible foresight from SE.

[ashwich]

just like to point out, if you're tanking in ShO, the dps difference between GB/ROH/RA rotation and GB/RA/RA rotation is so minuscule that you may as well do the ROH rotation just for STR down.

Oh I also don't really understand why the debate is between Goring and RoH. Are you guys talking Single target or AOE, I'm confused. The discussion started with dungeon trash, math ended up turning into single target. For single target they don't even compete...

[JackFross]

just like to point out, if you're tanking in ShO, the dps difference between GB/ROH/RA rotation and GB/RA/RA rotation is so minuscule that you may as well do the ROH rotation just for STR down.

Min-Maxing isn't about "good enough" it's about "optimal play for maximum dps output while maintaining maximum survival" - RoH is only worthwhile to use before a large hit, since the 10% is much more effective on that than it is on a series of autos which are effectively mitigated and turned to 0 by Regen, Aspected Benefic, and Lily even without the 10%.

Mixing in one RoH every third combo is actually a significant DPS loss over the course of an encounter. Assuming it's a minute long, you've already sacrificed 180-270 potency (the strength of an additional GCD) for the sake of negligible gains to mitigation... and it's very rare for such an encounter to only be a minute long.

Oh I also don't really understand why the debate is between Goring and RoH. Are you guys talking Single target or AOE, I'm confused. The discussion started with dungeon trash, math ended up turning into single target. For single target they don't even compete...

The discussion we're having of GB v RoH has been the entire time strictly related to trash pulls. We're having another discussion on the side regarding how to tank bosses wherein I was arguing that you should never need RoH when tanking in ShO (which is true) and you should be using minimal RoH when doing SwO (one in ShO to start, and few after that only when absolutely necessary) - completely separate discussions and arguments.

[Sarcatica]

Oh I also don't really understand why the debate is between Goring and RoH. Are you guys talking Single target or AOE, I'm confused. The discussion started with dungeon trash, math ended up turning into single target. For single target they don't even compete...

Doesn't even matter, GB should be used anyway. You don't suddenly do a lot of DPS as PLD without that free DPS ticking away at the start after Flashing.

[ashwich]

Min-Maxing isn't about "good enough" it's about "optimal play for maximum dps output while maintaining maximum survival" - RoH is only worthwhile to use before a large hit, since the 10% is much more effective on that than it is on a series of autos which are effectively mitigated and turned to 0 by Regen, Aspected Benefic, and Lily even without the 10%.

Truth. It's lower potency. But I've parsed (3 minutes with ShO) weaving in ROH every 3 actually higher than just GB/RA/RA. okay of course 3 minutes isn't a long time, and the only reason anyone would do more dmg with less potency rotation is with lucky crits. But that's the point I'm trying to make, the difference is sooooo soo small, in ShO, that random crits can offset it. At the end of the day you're trading mitigation which in your argument can be covered by HoTs anyway, for dmg so insignificant that nobody will notice.

[ashwich]

Doesn't even matter, GB should be used anyway. You don't suddenly do a lot of DPS as PLD without that free DPS ticking away at the start after Flashing.

unless, of course, your trash dies in less than 16 seconds. in which case you don't flash, and don't GB, and stick to RA so that your SMN doesn't pull everything straight off of you without SB

[Sarcatica]

Truth. It's lower potency. But I've parsed (3 minutes with ShO) weaving in ROH every 3 actually higher than just GB/RA/RA. okay of course 3 minutes isn't a long time, and the only reason anyone would do more dmg with less potency rotation is with lucky crits. But that's the point I'm trying to make, the difference is sooooo soo small, in ShO, that random crits can offset it. At the end of the day you're trading mitigation which in your argument can be covered by HoTs anyway, for dmg so insignificant that nobody will notice.

Let's do that math. 90pot loss every 7.5s. 3mins = 180s. 180s = 24 total combo. 90pot loss x 24 = 2160pot. 50pot (Sword Oath equivalent) is about 300 damage. That's ~13k damage you are missing. That's about almost another extra GB>RA>RA (9GCDs) combos. "Soooooo small" I would wonder about that. Rather than you spouting nonsense, do your math before commenting and trying to convince us otherwise.