Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Yuni_Queen]

So, from a musical standpoint, PLD is like the Casio Keyboard you use as a kid to learn music...and WAR is a true piano.

And DRK is pipe organ. A bit too hard for casuls, but the tunes make your soul stir.

If it comes to switch tanks for tankbusters, and WAR didnt pop up his stack-giving mitigations, he lost two stacks during berzerk, which is bad. On the other side, if he did, he has only Thrill of Battle, Fore, and Conva.
Rather enough to make it before switch, but party cannot make mistakes. While PLD/DRK change stances and can tank wiping party.

I really don't get your hate. Looks like Paladin hold enmity better than Warrior, if it's Paladin you hate so much!

[FallenWings]

And DRK is pipe organ. A bit too hard for casuls, but the tunes make your soul stir.

If it comes to switch tanks for tankbusters, and WAR didnt pop up his stack-giving mitigations, he lost two stacks during berzerk, which is bad. On the other side, if he did, he has only Thrill of Battle, Fore, and Conva.
Rather enough to make it before switch, but party cannot make mistakes. While PLD/DRK change stances and can tank wiping party.

I really don't get your hate. Looks like Paladin hold enmity better than Warrior, if it's Paladin you hate so much!

With the proper amount of Skill Speed and latency, you only blow one stack giving CD for your Berserk combo which is often Raw Intuition since it lines up nicely with the Berserk cooldown.

So the available cooldowns for Offensive stance tanking is more like:

WAR: Vengeance, Thrill of Battle
PLD: Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron(?), Bulwark(?)
DRK: Shadowskin, Shadowwall, Dark Mind(?), Dark Dance(?)

While WAR may be slightly weaker, it is not completely at a disadvantage. You can even argue that a WAR can lineup his Zerk+Raw Intuition for when he needs the mitigation increasing his CD options in a Physical fight.

[Deathgiver]

The problem with this method of raid damage contribution is that it is ultimately unreliable. As far as I'm aware, healers do not account for Parries or Blocks in their rotational healing. Fights are scripted enough where healers who know the timings will heal and deal damage on a strict timer unless they're fixing stupid. Healing is also powerful or can get powerful enough that the extra 20% from Sheltron will not matter if both tanks only need 1 cure to heal all damage, thus nullifying the potential healer DPS increase it could have provided.

At best you could argue that Hallowed Ground provides 3 free healer GCD's with it's 10 second duration and no requirement of a benediction versus Holmgang's 6 and benediction requirement. But then Living Dead blows both of them out of the water with its 18 second potential if we're talking about such high coordinated play.

As far as sheltron goes, yes we do take planned usage of that into account. Buffs that are still rng dependant like bulwark and drks parry up skill not so much. During early seph ex our pld would sheltron every tower to ensure that a cure I was sufficient after Da'at to ease mp usage.

Your math is also flawed on the ultimate cd exchange for healer gcds. Given same circumstances (~9 seconds to 0 hp + ~9 seconds invuln then bene) for living dead, a pld or war can wait to pop hallowed ground or holmgang until they are danger low, which should be at least roughly 6-7 seconds if it takes 9 to dead. That makes a pld give 15-16 seconds, a war 11-12 seconds, and for planned usage a war doesn't need a heal after as they can IB, Equilibrium, ToB to well over half hp in the span of 1 gcd. pld vs drk is maybe a differenc of 1 gcd depending on how scared the pld gets and war vs drk might be 2 gcds difference.

[Yuni_Queen]

With the proper amount of Skill Speed and latency, you only blow one stack giving CD for your Berserk combo which is often Raw Intuition since it lines up nicely with the Berserk cooldown.

And fracture? Aren't we supposed to use vengeance to put additional fracture before 3rd Cleave? Until i have terrible spell speed, but i am DRK by main, so only my weapon is below 230.

PLD: Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron(I woudnt count that as mitigation in 100%, since some tunk-busters are magic dmg, leaving it in a corner), Bulwark(i quess same here, but i t worked like first kiss during Holy Limit Break during Thor Ex), Stoneskin(Don't forget about this one, its actually 10% HP)
DRK: Shadowskin, Shadowwall, Dark Mind(same as with bulwark or sheltron but reversal), Dark Dance(i am not sure if my healers would love me, if i had used DA+DD as mitigation for some busters, but 20% flat chance to avoid 100% dmg sounds like a crazy play that turns me on.)

While WAR may be slightly weaker, it is not completely at a disadvantage. You can even argue that a WAR can lineup his Zerk+Raw Intuition for when he needs the mitigation increasing his CD options in a Physical fight.

Oh no, it is a little. Since WAR cannot cross-class 2nd tank class/WHM's stoneskin. DRK has additional Foresight, while paladin has stoneskin.
Arguable, if Featherfoot could be used as legit mitigation, but i woudn't count it fully as mitigation, since it is 15%. not even 20%, and 20 for Dark Dance is crazy play as we agreed.

And if i may quote my friend: "If it's not 100%, it may be as well 5%" ~Xylomar Xi'an - about fucking RNG.

So yeah, Warrior is on a disadvantage here. Not too big, maybe not too important. But when party is starting to wipe, this Raw or Vengeance could save the day.

[Reynhart]

If it comes to switch tanks for tankbusters, and WAR didnt pop up his stack-giving mitigations, he lost two stacks during berzerk, which is bad. On the other side, if he did, he has only Thrill of Battle, Fore, and Conva.
Rather enough to make it before switch, but party cannot make mistakes. While PLD/DRK change stances and can tank wiping party.

Yes, a bad WAR will have far more issue tanking than an average PLD. But you can't justify the state of tanks by that. What happens for great PLD ? Shouldn't they be rewarded for their skill ? Shouldn't they be on par with great WAR ? It goes back to what I said earlier. You can't have a job designed around average skill/content without regarding the issue at top tier content.

I really don't get your hate. Looks like Paladin hold enmity better than Warrior, if it's Paladin you hate so much!

Quite the opposite, in fact. PLD was my main until 3.0 where I switched for DRK even when it was thought to be weak because I love the job since FFIV. And I even leveled PLD on my alt to still play it frequently. It's why this issue bothers me. I'd like PLD to be as effective as the two other tanks. And I'd also like it to keep its identity as a protector more than an almost-DPS, as my suggestion on improving Cover can testify.

At best you could argue that Hallowed Ground provides 3 free healer GCD's with it's 10 second duration and no requirement of a benediction versus Holmgang's 6 and benediction requirement.

Except that WAR can bring itself back almost to full life with Inner Beast + Equilibirum + Second Wind + Thrill Of Battle. Just look at Xeno's Titan EX solo, you'd surprised.

[Kaizer]

It is really sad that this is the sentiment or feeling I get playing PLD as well. I'm pretty much going to start migrating away from PLD because of it.

[SpookyGhost]

What happens for great PLD? Shouldn't they be rewarded for their skill?

Eh?

/10char

[FallenWings]

As far as sheltron goes, yes we do take planned usage of that into account. Buffs that are still rng dependant like bulwark and drks parry up skill not so much. During early seph ex our pld would sheltron every tower to ensure that a cure I was sufficient after Da'at to ease mp usage.

Your math is also flawed on the ultimate cd exchange for healer gcds. Given same circumstances (~9 seconds to 0 hp + ~9 seconds invuln then bene) for living dead, a pld or war can wait to pop hallowed ground or holmgang until they are danger low, which should be at least roughly 6-7 seconds if it takes 9 to dead. That makes a pld give 15-16 seconds, a war 11-12 seconds, and for planned usage a war doesn't need a heal after as they can IB, Equilibrium, ToB to well over half hp in the span of 1 gcd. pld vs drk is maybe a differenc of 1 gcd depending on how scared the pld gets and war vs drk might be 2 gcds difference.

Ah, you are correct about Sheltron. Since I forget unlike Inner Beast, it is usable in Sword Oath. If purely tanking, Inner Beast > Sheltron but that shouldn't be the case under optimal play. The ultimate logic is another good point that I seem to have glossed over, although DRK is not as large a gain over the other tanks as I had thought, it is probably still safer to do so with DRK than with the others in the unfortunate event that PLD or WAR mistime or get crit to death before they can activate Hallowed Ground or Holmgang.

Except that WAR can bring itself back almost to full life with Inner Beast + Equilibirum + Second Wind + Thrill Of Battle. Just look at Xeno's Titan EX solo, you'd surprised.

This is no longer the case with the sweeping 3.2 changes to tanks. That video was during STR era where Tanks had a much lower HP total and a much stronger attack power.

Nowadays Warriors have 30k+ HP in defiance while Equilbrium has gotten weaker with the attack power change. The % of HP healed is much lower than back then. At best I can heal my total HP pool if I get equilibrum to crit while under berserk for 12k, second wind to crit for 3.5k and 6k crit for IB. This is a little bit around 65% HP. Still great but ultimately requires being in Defiance, timing a Berserk, and hoping for criticals. Everything has a cost to WAR's performance as doing the aforementioned costs you 1/2 Fell Cleaves and maybe 10 seconds of Defiance penalty versus PLD who has practically no cost to using Hallowed Ground for a far superior effect.

Thrill of Battle doesn't 'heal' like you think it would since it actually doesn't change the %HP state you are in, just your total HP amount. It's no different than popping Rampart, but for one hit unless healed.

[Reynhart]

This is no longer the case with the sweeping 3.2 changes to tanks. That video was during STR era where Tanks had a much lower HP total and a much stronger attack power.

It still gives you enough HP to survive without Benediction, considering you can do this every 3 minutes.

Thrill of Battle doesn't 'heal' like you think it would since it actually doesn't change the %HP state you are in, just your total HP amount. It's no different than popping Rampart, but for one hit unless healed.

Except you don't care about the %HP you're at. If you have 2500/25000 and might take 3000 on the next hit, Thrill of Battle heals you for 5000 HP. You could stay at 7500/25000, it doesn't matter.
It's also why WAR doesn't need Defiance as much as PLD or DRK need their tank stance. As long as you're under your usual HP max, Defiance does nothing for the damage you take.

[FallenWings]

Except we don't care about the %HP you're at. If you have 2500/25000 and might take 3000 on the next hit, Thrill of Battle heals you for 5000 HP. You could stay at 7500/25000, it doesn't matter.
It's also why WAR doesn't need Defiance as much as PLD or DRK need their tank stance. As long as you're under your usual HP max, Defiance does nothing for the damage you take.

Actually you're right that it is a heal if you don't heal the extra HP total it provides in the context of having lower hp. I suppose the logic if it not being a heal is only applicable in preparation for tankbusters at full HP.
However, I don't necessarily see the point of blowing Thrill of Battle when as you've said, you could have used Second Wind or Equilibrium without removing one of your mitigation options for the future tankbusters.

It still gives you enough HP to survive without Benediction, considering you can do this every 3 minutes.

A (somewhat)fair trade off for requiring up to 5 other skills to achieve a similar effect in terms of survival no?

Latest response-

Because this forum is clunky or I'm just bad at properly replying:

You can achieve 9 GCDs in a Berserk which is often: FC, FC, SS/Maim, BB/SE, HS, Maim, SE, Fracture, FC. During the rotation you can gain 4 Abandon stacks through combos so you only need 1 extra stack from CD's to fit that 3rd FC. You Berzerk after HS to fit in Fracture as your 8/9th GCD.

Although it seemed to not be clear, the reason for the (?) on some of the listed cooldowns is as you mentioned their requirement for a specific type of damage. Although they're not always usable, they do give you an edge over X tank if you can use them. Dark Dance itself isn't the real CD but it enables access to Reprisal which can be considered a CD although a weak one. War doesn't have a second tank cross class because it IS the second class cross class lol. Convalescence, Foresight, Awareness, and Bloodbath weren't mentioned since they're universal across all 3 tanks minus traits. Stoneskin costs PLD a GCD and doesn't stack with a healer Stoneskin so I guess you could consider that. Second Wind is a heal and won't prevent you from getting one shotted at 100% HP.