Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Elfr]

I'm betting all my 3 year experience on this game that a great PLD allows for the same raid dps as does a great WAR. Because while yea WAR can solo titan ex, and PLD can't, PLD is still the mitigation king. It cannot kill an enemy, but it cannot also die. A stalemate we have all secretly come to love since the release of the class, one that you must accept if you call yourself a PLD main. A great PLD would increase the dps output of healers to the point it would match the dps output of a WAR, plain and simple. If we cannot see this, then we are spitting on Square Enix's face.

[FallenWings]

I'm betting all my 3 year experience on this game that a great PLD allows for the same raid dps as does a great WAR. Because while yea WAR can solo titan ex, and PLD can't, PLD is still the mitigation king. It cannot kill an enemy, but it cannot also die. A stalemate we have all secretly come to love since the release of the class, one that you must accept if you call yourself a PLD main. A great PLD would increase the dps output of healers to the point it would match the dps output of a WAR, plain and simple. If we cannot see this, then we are spitting on Square Enix's face.

The problem with this method of raid damage contribution is that it is ultimately unreliable. As far as I'm aware, healers do not account for Parries or Blocks in their rotational healing. Fights are scripted enough where healers who know the timings will heal and deal damage on a strict timer unless they're fixing stupid. Healing is also powerful or can get powerful enough that the extra 20% from Sheltron will not matter if both tanks only need 1 cure to heal all damage, thus nullifying the potential healer DPS increase it could have provided.

At best you could argue that Hallowed Ground provides 3 free healer GCD's with it's 10 second duration and no requirement of a benediction versus Holmgang's 6 and benediction requirement. But then Living Dead blows both of them out of the water with its 18 second potential if we're talking about such high coordinated play.

[Deathgiver]

The problem with this method of raid damage contribution is that it is ultimately unreliable. As far as I'm aware, healers do not account for Parries or Blocks in their rotational healing. Fights are scripted enough where healers who know the timings will heal and deal damage on a strict timer unless they're fixing stupid. Healing is also powerful or can get powerful enough that the extra 20% from Sheltron will not matter if both tanks only need 1 cure to heal all damage, thus nullifying the potential healer DPS increase it could have provided.

At best you could argue that Hallowed Ground provides 3 free healer GCD's with it's 10 second duration and no requirement of a benediction versus Holmgang's 6 and benediction requirement. But then Living Dead blows both of them out of the water with its 18 second potential if we're talking about such high coordinated play.

As far as sheltron goes, yes we do take planned usage of that into account. Buffs that are still rng dependant like bulwark and drks parry up skill not so much. During early seph ex our pld would sheltron every tower to ensure that a cure I was sufficient after Da'at to ease mp usage.

Your math is also flawed on the ultimate cd exchange for healer gcds. Given same circumstances (~9 seconds to 0 hp + ~9 seconds invuln then bene) for living dead, a pld or war can wait to pop hallowed ground or holmgang until they are danger low, which should be at least roughly 6-7 seconds if it takes 9 to dead. That makes a pld give 15-16 seconds, a war 11-12 seconds, and for planned usage a war doesn't need a heal after as they can IB, Equilibrium, ToB to well over half hp in the span of 1 gcd. pld vs drk is maybe a differenc of 1 gcd depending on how scared the pld gets and war vs drk might be 2 gcds difference.

[FallenWings]

As far as sheltron goes, yes we do take planned usage of that into account. Buffs that are still rng dependant like bulwark and drks parry up skill not so much. During early seph ex our pld would sheltron every tower to ensure that a cure I was sufficient after Da'at to ease mp usage.

Your math is also flawed on the ultimate cd exchange for healer gcds. Given same circumstances (~9 seconds to 0 hp + ~9 seconds invuln then bene) for living dead, a pld or war can wait to pop hallowed ground or holmgang until they are danger low, which should be at least roughly 6-7 seconds if it takes 9 to dead. That makes a pld give 15-16 seconds, a war 11-12 seconds, and for planned usage a war doesn't need a heal after as they can IB, Equilibrium, ToB to well over half hp in the span of 1 gcd. pld vs drk is maybe a differenc of 1 gcd depending on how scared the pld gets and war vs drk might be 2 gcds difference.

Ah, you are correct about Sheltron. Since I forget unlike Inner Beast, it is usable in Sword Oath. If purely tanking, Inner Beast > Sheltron but that shouldn't be the case under optimal play. The ultimate logic is another good point that I seem to have glossed over, although DRK is not as large a gain over the other tanks as I had thought, it is probably still safer to do so with DRK than with the others in the unfortunate event that PLD or WAR mistime or get crit to death before they can activate Hallowed Ground or Holmgang.

Except that WAR can bring itself back almost to full life with Inner Beast + Equilibirum + Second Wind + Thrill Of Battle. Just look at Xeno's Titan EX solo, you'd surprised.

This is no longer the case with the sweeping 3.2 changes to tanks. That video was during STR era where Tanks had a much lower HP total and a much stronger attack power.

Nowadays Warriors have 30k+ HP in defiance while Equilbrium has gotten weaker with the attack power change. The % of HP healed is much lower than back then. At best I can heal my total HP pool if I get equilibrum to crit while under berserk for 12k, second wind to crit for 3.5k and 6k crit for IB. This is a little bit around 65% HP. Still great but ultimately requires being in Defiance, timing a Berserk, and hoping for criticals. Everything has a cost to WAR's performance as doing the aforementioned costs you 1/2 Fell Cleaves and maybe 10 seconds of Defiance penalty versus PLD who has practically no cost to using Hallowed Ground for a far superior effect.

Thrill of Battle doesn't 'heal' like you think it would since it actually doesn't change the %HP state you are in, just your total HP amount. It's no different than popping Rampart, but for one hit unless healed.

[Reynhart]

This is no longer the case with the sweeping 3.2 changes to tanks. That video was during STR era where Tanks had a much lower HP total and a much stronger attack power.

It still gives you enough HP to survive without Benediction, considering you can do this every 3 minutes.

Thrill of Battle doesn't 'heal' like you think it would since it actually doesn't change the %HP state you are in, just your total HP amount. It's no different than popping Rampart, but for one hit unless healed.

Except you don't care about the %HP you're at. If you have 2500/25000 and might take 3000 on the next hit, Thrill of Battle heals you for 5000 HP. You could stay at 7500/25000, it doesn't matter.
It's also why WAR doesn't need Defiance as much as PLD or DRK need their tank stance. As long as you're under your usual HP max, Defiance does nothing for the damage you take.

[FallenWings]

Except we don't care about the %HP you're at. If you have 2500/25000 and might take 3000 on the next hit, Thrill of Battle heals you for 5000 HP. You could stay at 7500/25000, it doesn't matter.
It's also why WAR doesn't need Defiance as much as PLD or DRK need their tank stance. As long as you're under your usual HP max, Defiance does nothing for the damage you take.

Actually you're right that it is a heal if you don't heal the extra HP total it provides in the context of having lower hp. I suppose the logic if it not being a heal is only applicable in preparation for tankbusters at full HP.
However, I don't necessarily see the point of blowing Thrill of Battle when as you've said, you could have used Second Wind or Equilibrium without removing one of your mitigation options for the future tankbusters.

It still gives you enough HP to survive without Benediction, considering you can do this every 3 minutes.

A (somewhat)fair trade off for requiring up to 5 other skills to achieve a similar effect in terms of survival no?

Latest response-

Because this forum is clunky or I'm just bad at properly replying:

You can achieve 9 GCDs in a Berserk which is often: FC, FC, SS/Maim, BB/SE, HS, Maim, SE, Fracture, FC. During the rotation you can gain 4 Abandon stacks through combos so you only need 1 extra stack from CD's to fit that 3rd FC. You Berzerk after HS to fit in Fracture as your 8/9th GCD.

Although it seemed to not be clear, the reason for the (?) on some of the listed cooldowns is as you mentioned their requirement for a specific type of damage. Although they're not always usable, they do give you an edge over X tank if you can use them. Dark Dance itself isn't the real CD but it enables access to Reprisal which can be considered a CD although a weak one. War doesn't have a second tank cross class because it IS the second class cross class lol. Convalescence, Foresight, Awareness, and Bloodbath weren't mentioned since they're universal across all 3 tanks minus traits. Stoneskin costs PLD a GCD and doesn't stack with a healer Stoneskin so I guess you could consider that. Second Wind is a heal and won't prevent you from getting one shotted at 100% HP.

[Reynhart]

A (somewhat)fair trade off for requiring up to 5 other skills to achieve a similar effect in terms of survival no?

It could be, if WAR didn't keep all other mitigation tools ready for action, generally with shorter cooldown than PLD and DRK.
Especially when one of the above is designed to be "The mitigation tank". (Three guesses which one it is, the first two don't count )

War doesn't have a second tank cross class because it IS the second class cross class lol. Convalescence, Foresight, Awareness, and Bloodbath weren't mentioned since they're universal across all 3 tanks minus traits.

Second wind can still save you or give the healer the few seconds it could need to bring you back on foot. And it costs nothing. As a DRK, I'd rather have LNC than MRD as a cross-class, to refill my TP or improve my parry rate.
(And deal more damage as an OT with BfB, but shhhhh )