Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[KrenianKandos]

You know what I get from all this?

Kinda flabberghasting that the tank that has the best passive mitigation is actually the WORST Main Tank in the game due to mechanics and cooldowns in this game.

We've gone into a strange, new world. It's just interesting how the dynamics of Tanking have changed from a defensive minded view to pumping out the most offensive without causing enough problems to being kept alive. Granted, I guess that's always been a factor no matter what game you played in the last few years as it's effectively a numbers game where at some point, the mobs won't kill you with an x number so you might as well make the game go faster.

Still weird to see the conversation that Paladins effectively hinder a group if they're MTing in Shield Oath only...I'm going to voice the same thing someone else said: That Shield Oath shouldn't nerf PLD damage because, effectively, you're forcing a tank to get out of that stance asap because it's so detrimental.

[Alistaire]

This came up in shouts recently and it boils down to this:

PLD is still bad.

SE designing fights around making PLD useful doesn't make PLD good; it means the job is being catered to in order to keep it relevant without actually fixing the problems in the balance.

[MagiusNecros]

This came up in shouts recently and it boils down to this:

PLD is still bad.

SE designing fights around making PLD useful doesn't make PLD good; it means the job is being catered to in order to keep it relevant without actually fixing the problems in the balance.

I agree. Designing content to cover glaring weaknesses and pretend nothing is wrong with the job class isn't the answer. Because once you take the smoke and mirrors away you can clearly see that Warrior is basically the best Tank job in the game now.

Just like how a lot of the new content forces tank swaps to hide the fact that Tank A is a hindrance in MT role and Tank B is a hindrance in Offtank role. Whereas Tank C is great in both.

[Iromi]

Don't listen to some random video on youtube...I guess though that is why you came here asking. I don't listen to anyone but my closest respected friends and myself. Food for thought.

Also its not the job, its the end game...its bad, very bad.

[shao32]

i don't know how much old are those words from xeno, but you know everyone the most contenc is designe to be kill it without the mega-hyper-awesome tank dps (except the 1º tier of alexander savage when come out) if is was for xeno and other DPS fanboys then whe see ppl runing with the same 8 jobs to get the perfect max dps, a valid form to play of course, PLD make less work to the healers that WAR do.

whe have many ways to get down the contenc, and any MT can be safe in tank mode all the fight and still beat it, after all if everyone know they job and use nice the tools they have to dealt the battle you can beat itignoring if you using the zerk strategy or not, after all is a question of comfort, if 2 teams beat the same boss and one use a "less" efective form ¿who cares?, they beat the boss and they are confortable with that.

[Gameplayzero]

Don't listen to some random video on youtube...I guess though that is why you came here asking. I don't listen to anyone but my closest respected friends and myself. Food for thought.

Also its not the job, its the end game...its bad, very bad.

Xeno is not a random. He is one of the most well known warriors in the game based on his warrior guides and video tutorials.

and trust me you'd see a lot more spam post if I quoted every questionable thing I saw a random say . Though what Xeno said isn't questionable, I was just rather curious. But you shouldn't limit yourself to your friends when it comes to info imo. You are missing out on people like Dervy who provides a huge truck of info that is mostly reliable.

[Gameplayzero]

And I still feel that simply increasing PLD's damage is not a viable solution in the long run. DRK and PLD are already copy/pasted on most of their skills and even WAR is not that different. Each tank should have something really unique to bring to the party..

It really just seems like square dug a hole for themselves. Even more support and utility (or fixing the support they already have) isn't really going to fix much with how the meta/Balance is. Unless it's added damage support mentioned above. That's something dark should have imo since their utility is small and it makes most sense. But having specific tanks have huge utility like storms eye is part of the problem so maybe bad idea. Giving paladin closer numbers still doesn't make them optimal, but seems like the laziest fix (also mentioned in quoted post).

Idk how to properly fix paladin. From the info you guys are saying they might just need an overhaul? I feel like it's a mix of both the overall nature of this game and the design of paladin. Mostly the situational moves they have in comparison to other tanks.

[SpookyGhost]

Kinda flabberghasting that the tank that has the best passive mitigation is actually the WORST Main Tank in the game due to mechanics and cooldowns in this game.

When there's only 3 tanks available, there really shouldn't be 1 undisputed best MT for everything. PLD should be on relatively equal ground with WAR and DRK, which it is. The only reason you wouldn't have PLD MT is for DPS efficiency - it's actually pretty strong as a progression MT simply due to it's extremely strong physical-based CDs, passive shield blocking, and Hallowed. IB is strong, but for progression you're better off with WAR as OT simply to ensure 100% Path uptime - WAR is also better for handling adds if those show up. Honestly though, in A6S, A7S, and A8S both tanks will be tanking for pretty equal portions of time - so it largely comes down to "who should pull", which should generally be the WAR due to high aggro burst.

Haven't really looked into it fight-by-fight but I imagine having the WAR pull and using Vengeance under Berserk/IR/etc would be optimal for aggro + mitigation, and then tank swapping after Berserk fades - this assumes you won't need Vengeance for 120s, but it's still optimal for aggro even without it and that will let PLD get away with not needing to RoH so much (if at all). For DRK there's slightly more consideration to make, since Reprsial exists and you might need that up sooner rather than later, but that would be fight specific. For DRK + PLD I imagine you'd just want DRK tanking due to Reprisal and Low Blow procs.

There's also NIN to consider, though I think this only becomes relevant if the PLD can pull in SwO - otherwise you'd have to either delay your FoF or use FoF on abilities in Shield Oath which just seems worse than having a WAR pull, especially if you're using your Shield Swipe proc in ShO.

Anyway I think some people are blowing this a bit out of proportion. PLD can tank any fight in end game, Off or Main. The discrepancies are entirely at min/max and should only be cared about if you're really pushing the boundaries in progression.

[KrenianKandos]

When there's only 3 tanks available, there really shouldn't be 1 undisputed best MT for everything. PLD should be on relatively equal ground with WAR and DRK, which it is. The only reason you wouldn't have PLD MT is for DPS efficiency - it's actually pretty strong as a progression MT simply due to it's extremely strong physical-based CDs, passive shield blocking, and Hallowed. IB is strong, but for progression you're better off with WAR as OT simply to ensure 100% Path uptime - WAR is also better for handling adds if those show up. Honestly though, in A6S, A7S, and A8S both tanks will be tanking for pretty equal portions of time - so it largely comes down to "who should pull", which should generally be the WAR due to high aggro burst.

Haven't really looked into it fight-by-fight but I imagine having the WAR pull and using Vengeance under Berserk/IR/etc would be optimal for aggro + mitigation, and then tank swapping after Berserk fades - this assumes you won't need Vengeance for 120s, but it's still optimal for aggro even without it and that will let PLD get away with not needing to RoH so much (if at all). For DRK there's slightly more consideration to make, since Reprsial exists and you might need that up sooner rather than later, but that would be fight specific. For DRK + PLD I imagine you'd just want DRK tanking due to Reprisal and Low Blow procs.

There's also NIN to consider, though I think this only becomes relevant if the PLD can pull in SwO - otherwise you'd have to either delay your FoF or use FoF on abilities in Shield Oath which just seems worse than having a WAR pull, especially if you're using your Shield Swipe proc in ShO.

Anyway I think some people are blowing this a bit out of proportion. PLD can tank any fight in end game, Off or Main. The discrepancies are entirely at min/max and should only be cared about if you're really pushing the boundaries in progression.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough when I said the best passive mitigator out of the three. I actually meant the best in regards to passive mitigation DUE to having a shield and reducing damage on a far more consistent basis than the Warrior and Dark Knight counterparts. While I completely agree that each class should be able to do the job effectively, my post was more the fact that the guy that is best in regards to keeping an even keel (aka taking a constant, steady stream of damage to play around on) is the worst tank of the three, solely because of mechanics and the thought process that offensive prowess needs to be considered. For most games, the one that can take constant and even damage is usually the best for progression, which you noted. But even on that, you're better off in this game going on an offensive mind and having the passive mitigator go full out damage mode instead.

It's just an odd balance that is going on with this game in regards to the Paladin class; the mechanics are odd.

While I fully agree that all three tanks are MORE than capable to do each of the content no matter what, it's the min/maxers like this fellow Warrior podcaster that tends to throw weight on people to discuss such threads like this. While I understand he wants to bring up the fact that the Paladin class effectively is best to dps and not to main tank so long as skill and gear are equal, the way the person might have gone by it has made it that now people are wondering why the Paladin class is bad. When in fact, as you noted, this is completely blown out of proportion and should not ever be even worried about by 95% of the people who play this game.

It's the whole proverb "making a mountain out of a mole". But it's still interesting to hear top players speaking about breaking the numbers down and showing the math behind it for people who are into it. And yeah, I agree, if it's big enough, S-E needs to take a look at it:

Either level the playing field and remove the damage reduction in a tank mode situation so that Paladins don't feel like they are hurting their groups in the long run due to the DPS decrease, or add some sort of penalty to the Dark Knight or Warrior class. I am much more of the opinion of the former than the latter; no one likes nerfs.

[Reynhart]

Idk how to properly fix paladin.

I don't know if it could be a proper "fix", but I really feel all 3 tanks should do the same damage as MT. This way, no tank would be the default MT.
As OT, however, I feel like WAR should have the highest personal DPS, DRK should could apply leech effect so that you BRD or MCH shouldn't have to sacrifice their DPS, and PLD should have additionnal healing skills, so that healers could DPS far more.
This way, you could have three different setup, based around their OT, where the overall DPS would be the same.

Another way would be to give PLD much much more mitigation, and even less damage, so that you could build a solo tank setup, where the additionnal DPS would compensate for the PLD's decreased damage, and the healer's purely focusing on healing a solo tank.

Anyway I think some people are blowing this a bit out of proportion. PLD can tank any fight in end game, Off or Main. The discrepancies are entirely at min/max and should only be cared about if you're really pushing the boundaries in progression.

Indeed. The problem is that even if min/maxing is not as required as 3.0, why would people chose to use a suboptimal setup ? As long as tank DPS matters, then people will always move towards the highest. And designing content where it doesn't, while doable, will quickly feel pretty lame.