Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Reynhart]

And yes, no damage penalty would be demonstrably not broken at all based on PLD MT numbers compared to DRK and WAR.

Not broken, yes, but it would feel kind of weird for PLD to be the only tank without a damage penalty.

And I still feel that simply increasing PLD's damage is not a viable solution in the long run. Comes the next expansion, we'll probably have a 4th tank. In the end, if they do around the same damage and have the same mitigation, they'd mostly feel the same. DRK and PLD are already copy/pasted on most of their skills and even WAR is not that different. Each tank should have something really unique to bring to the party.
Since I doubt the meta will change for "moar DPS" it means that each one should increase the raid DPS in some way. And true to its name, WAR's way will be by having higher personal DPS.

[Destous]

Not broken, yes, but it would feel kind of weird for PLD to be the only tank without a damage penalty.
EDITING

Any weirder than WARs being the only tank with completely oGCD stance swapping and DRKs being the only tank with a 15% damage boost toggle? It's weird that PLD stances are uniquely a hindrance to PLDs while WAR and DRK stances have special mechanics to make them more useful.

[Reynhart]

Any weirder than WARs being the only tank with completely oGCD stance swapping and DRKs being the only tank with a 15% damage boost toggle? It's weird that PLD stances are uniquely a hindrance to PLDs while WAR and DRK stances have special mechanics to make them more useful.

From that point of view, it would more interesting to give them additionnal effects.
I'm sure we'd all love these tiny sentences "...while under the effect of Shield Oath" and "...while under the effect of Sword Oath"

[Gameplayzero]

And I still feel that simply increasing PLD's damage is not a viable solution in the long run. DRK and PLD are already copy/pasted on most of their skills and even WAR is not that different. Each tank should have something really unique to bring to the party..

It really just seems like square dug a hole for themselves. Even more support and utility (or fixing the support they already have) isn't really going to fix much with how the meta/Balance is. Unless it's added damage support mentioned above. That's something dark should have imo since their utility is small and it makes most sense. But having specific tanks have huge utility like storms eye is part of the problem so maybe bad idea. Giving paladin closer numbers still doesn't make them optimal, but seems like the laziest fix (also mentioned in quoted post).

Idk how to properly fix paladin. From the info you guys are saying they might just need an overhaul? I feel like it's a mix of both the overall nature of this game and the design of paladin. Mostly the situational moves they have in comparison to other tanks.

[Reynhart]

Idk how to properly fix paladin.

I don't know if it could be a proper "fix", but I really feel all 3 tanks should do the same damage as MT. This way, no tank would be the default MT.
As OT, however, I feel like WAR should have the highest personal DPS, DRK should could apply leech effect so that you BRD or MCH shouldn't have to sacrifice their DPS, and PLD should have additionnal healing skills, so that healers could DPS far more.
This way, you could have three different setup, based around their OT, where the overall DPS would be the same.

Another way would be to give PLD much much more mitigation, and even less damage, so that you could build a solo tank setup, where the additionnal DPS would compensate for the PLD's decreased damage, and the healer's purely focusing on healing a solo tank.

Anyway I think some people are blowing this a bit out of proportion. PLD can tank any fight in end game, Off or Main. The discrepancies are entirely at min/max and should only be cared about if you're really pushing the boundaries in progression.

Indeed. The problem is that even if min/maxing is not as required as 3.0, why would people chose to use a suboptimal setup ? As long as tank DPS matters, then people will always move towards the highest. And designing content where it doesn't, while doable, will quickly feel pretty lame.

[SpookyGhost]

Indeed. The problem is that even if min/maxing is not as required as 3.0, why would people chose to use a suboptimal setup ? As long as tank DPS matters, then people will always move towards the highest. And designing content where it doesn't, while doable, will quickly feel pretty lame.

I mean, based on my experience in casual raiding I just take what I can get. Right now we have a DRK and a MNK in my group - a DRK and a NIN or a PLD and a MNK would be better, but they don't want to play those jobs so why would I force them to? If this were 3.0 and fights were still tuned so tight there might be an argument for it, but there's really no reason to pick and choose right now. If someone is willing to play either job and you discover that one is better than the other for whatever fight, then sure tell them you'd prefer them on that job. But if all they want to play is, say, MNK and they're a really good MNK, would you kick them out just to get a NIN? I dunno, seems silly to me. I think this trickle down effect is all in people's minds, they want to maximize their effectiveness in all aspects even when they're not pushing for world first - it's a video game, try to have a bit of fun with it.

e: Also, just to throw this information out there, WAR was only better MT when Defiance was necessary. When it wasn't, PLD not only retained all of it's CDs in SwO, it also did more damage than WAR in the same spot (largely due to the ridiculousness that was Shield Swipe). These days it's more a question of "What does a tank lose when OT/What does a tank gain when MT?" - PLD loses Shield Swipe (and the entire use of it's shield) as OT, WAR loses Vengeance counters, and DRK loses Low Blow procs + Reprisal. Vengeance is very strong, but is only available every 120s and sometimes needs to be held for mitigation rather than damage - the only counter to this is when the WAR is pulling, as long as they won't be absolutely needing the Vengeance mitigation in the next 2 minutes. So generally, PLD is more efficient DPS-wise as MT as long as you have the WAR pull first to get the maximum effectiveness out of both tanks (PLD never has to RoH or go into ShO, WAR gets it's Vengeance counters and builds a healthy aggro lead).

[KuraiKiserogeru]

Oh this is not new information, Its been said since FCoB.

[Iromi]

stuff..

I am not sure if this is a serious post or troll >.>

Just a few questions...or uh..thoughts..

[*]The best WAR in this game, though he does not admit.

I did not realize you knew every single WAR in the game personally? Or did we forget that not everyone makes videos of stuff they do in a video game lol.

Pretty much changed the tanking meta. I think Boc Choy was behind it too during BCoB but Xeno was watched a lot youtube / twitch (Tanks’s using STR gear)

Into what? My group never watches and videos or listens to anyone but ourselves..and we clear stuff just fine...and we've been together since FFXI days.

Very respected within the tanking community

I know tons of tanks and not one mentions this fellow...

Pretty entertaining player to watch on Twitch.

People still do/watch twitch? Furthermore...I am sorry but, I do love FFXIV...it is fun to play, but extremely boring to watch.

All other Youtube guides became irrelevant as Xenos where the best.

Again..people still do this? How bad is someone that they need to rely on a video? I mean...okay...I get that they give helpful hints and that is cool...but relying on it to this much? Uhm...well this explains a lot then.

Xeno started getting a bigger following during FCoB, slightly lesser known during SCoB era.

Again...I know a tooooon of people who play this game and again, never heard of this person. Just looks like your regular gamer who enjoys their hobby, which is cool. You are acting like this person cured cancer...very neckbeardy and cringe worthy post. Really, I had to cover my face reading that from embarrassment. Well...okay then.

I would rather hear opinion some pro no-lifes from Japan. I bet they have outdone us all twice when it comes to maximizing anything in this game.

Damn hikikomori'es....

Hahaha...yeah same. But I guess people tend to forget not everyone sits home all day and makes guides upon guides and plasters themselves on the internet. Most people just don't care lol.

[Gameplayzero]

snip

so I'm confused. You actually question the use of vids? I mean for normal content yeah, but for raids? Especially when doing try outs or joining an already existing group? Not only that but studying different rotations and different methods to doing certain mechanics is no harm done. Watching vids doesn't make you a bad player IF that's what you are implying. You can completely ignore vids however if group is cool with that, but most won't.

and the forum has mentioned Xeno plenty of times. Not really a nobody just because you've never heard of him . Though my post is rather off topic.

Rather then argue about this in the manner you guys are arguing in... why not just ask Xeno himself?

basically what jpec said. Maybe a discussion as old as time, but I wanted to get opinions and hear everyone's thoughts on this. As well as have misinformed players like myself see the post as well. Learn more about the tanks.

[Reynhart]

PLD loses Shield Swipe (and the entire use of it's shield) as OT, WAR loses Vengeance counters

Considering that you rarely need mitigation as OT, PLD loses Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron and Bulwark, while WAR loses Vengeance and Raw Intuition.
BUT, even when OT, Vengeance and Raw Intuition still have an effect, by giving you one stack of Abandon. It's not much, but it's what allows the triple-Fell Cleave burst.

If PLD's CD could have some kind of side effect on top of damage mitigation, it would also make PLD more appealing as OT. And it's a good thing to push PLD in the OT spot, but like "PLD is useful when OT" and not "Move away, WAR's better than you".

Hmmm....what if Rampart and Sentinel applied their damage reduction on the member with the highest enmity in the party ? Or if Cover's CD was reduced to 60s, so that you can pair it with every mitigation CD ?