Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Destous]

I've said it forever, Shield Oath shouldn't reduce PLD damage. PLD damage is already incredibly low due to a lack of high potency skills and general lack of oGCD damaging skills, especially compared to DRK who can seemingly do oGCD damage between 90% of their GCDs. WAR also has a huge boon in their main enmity combo also being their highest potency combo. So even a WAR in Deliverance is still trying to prioritize an enmity combo to put out their best damage numbers, which means they're still generating amazing threat while they focus on DPS.

The icing on the cake is that it takes two GCD to go from Shield to Sword and back to Shield vs DRK who can drop Grit oGCD, and only needs to invest a GCD going back into Grit. It really is time to either let Sword and Shield Oath stack, so PLD can swap out of tank stance and into a damage stance the same way that DRK does, or to just remove the damage penalty on Shield to make the damage difference between Shield and Sword less tremendous.

[garret_hawke]

Except Grit can only been turn on/off on GCD.

[Violette]

max possible dps output.
Read again.
One more time.

If War is MT, he is locking out PLD from one oGCD with 15 cooldown, which is lowering maximal possible damage paladin would be able to deal, if he was MT.

Still no.

The damage "gain" from Shield Swipe is less than that of the 15% increase in damage, let alone the increase from auto attacks.

[Shinzee]

No dmg penalty on shield oath sounds not broken at all.
Also doesnt look like you played drk at all, you can not drop grit ogcd, its still bound to the gcd even if you want to drop it, it doesnt cost a gcd but you still gotta wait for the gcd to be rdy before you drop it. Also while saving 1 gcd between dancing you pay the price via mp a valuable resource as drk while pretty much just a random bar for a pld outside of dung runs where you flash.
When it comes to tanking out of tank stance pld already got the adv that their dps rota contains savage blade and shield swipe which both got enmity multipliers, far from what a war MT can generate (once path isnt needed anymore after prog) but its a good chunk more enmity than what a drk generates while maximizing their dps.

[Ragnorak]

Hate to break it to you but he's not wrong. And its old news

[Destous]

snip

What a joke. Grit doesn't activate the GCD. Changing from one Oath to the other always costs a GCD. Going from Grit > no Grit > Grit activates the GCD once. Going Shield > Sword > Shield activates the GCD twice. All your stating is that DRKs have to time when they drop Grit, which is exactly what healers do with Cleric between cast bars. Yours is a semantic argument that takes nothing away from my own.

And yes, no damage penalty would be demonstrably not broken at all based on PLD MT numbers compared to DRK and WAR.

[Reynhart]

And yes, no damage penalty would be demonstrably not broken at all based on PLD MT numbers compared to DRK and WAR.

Not broken, yes, but it would feel kind of weird for PLD to be the only tank without a damage penalty.

And I still feel that simply increasing PLD's damage is not a viable solution in the long run. Comes the next expansion, we'll probably have a 4th tank. In the end, if they do around the same damage and have the same mitigation, they'd mostly feel the same. DRK and PLD are already copy/pasted on most of their skills and even WAR is not that different. Each tank should have something really unique to bring to the party.
Since I doubt the meta will change for "moar DPS" it means that each one should increase the raid DPS in some way. And true to its name, WAR's way will be by having higher personal DPS.

[Destous]

Not broken, yes, but it would feel kind of weird for PLD to be the only tank without a damage penalty.
EDITING

Any weirder than WARs being the only tank with completely oGCD stance swapping and DRKs being the only tank with a 15% damage boost toggle? It's weird that PLD stances are uniquely a hindrance to PLDs while WAR and DRK stances have special mechanics to make them more useful.

[Yuni_Queen]

Still no.

The damage "gain" from Shield Swipe is less than that of the 15% increase in damage, let alone the increase from auto attacks.

Didn't i say, there is no point in sitting in Shield Oath whole fight?
Besides, if you want WAR to mt whole fight in defiance, he is gonna have 20% penalty + will be locked away from 500 potency attacks.

So if we say, that MT is supposed to sit in tank stance whole fight, PLD wins, becuase i know little WARs that would willingly give up delieverence for paladin 15% dmg increase.

[Reynhart]

Any weirder than WARs being the only tank with completely oGCD stance swapping and DRKs being the only tank with a 15% damage boost toggle? It's weird that PLD stances are uniquely a hindrance to PLDs while WAR and DRK stances have special mechanics to make them more useful.

From that point of view, it would more interesting to give them additionnal effects.
I'm sure we'd all love these tiny sentences "...while under the effect of Shield Oath" and "...while under the effect of Sword Oath"