Riddle Me This: "Regen on pulls is bad"

[tinythinker]

@OP: Based on what you said, you were fine. You just need to change the order of your opener a little. Start with Aero, then a cure, then regen. This gives the tank two GCD's of enmity generation before you've thrown out your regen.

Thanks.

And while I get the message "Regen will pull aggro off of a tank who is in the process of pulling", more info could help as I don't know the hate rules yet, which a healer needs to understand every bit as well as a tank to do their job properly. So to be clear:

-Enmity builds over time; taunts/damage from tank build it but it can take time to accrue; healing can cause it & also accrue it over time; HoT from Regen on tank before a pull can outcompete what some tanks pull with for enmity?

-I mostly use Shroud for mana regen in boss fights or really big pulls because of the long cool-down, but is it worth it on regular trash pulls for keeping my enmity lower while I use my healing stick?

[Eidolon]

Thanks.

And while I get the message "Regen will pull aggro off of a tank who is in the process of pulling", more info could help as I don't know the hate rules yet, which a healer needs to understand every bit as well as a tank to do their job properly. So to be clear:

-Enmity builds over time; taunts/damage from tank build it but it can take time to accrue; healing can cause it & also accrue it over time; HoT from Regen on tank before a pull can outcompete what some tanks pull with for enmity?

Basically, every action you take, regardless if it's a self-buff, a heal, a damaging attack, or a high-enmity move from a tank, causes threat.
For example, if your tank aggro's a boss you will also be on the threat list. If you pop your self-buffs, you might actually pull the boss if the tank doesn't use -anything- on it. It's a small pittance of an amount though, and is easily overwhealmed by the most basic of moves.

As for the enmity of a tank, check and see if they have "Defiance (Lv.30)", "Shield Oath (lv.40)", or "Grit (Lv.30)" up. These three skills are the tank skills that reduce incomming damage (PLD/DRK), increase the HP and Healing Recieved (WAR), and also grant a bonus to threat generation (All.)

In the early game, before you even recieved Regen, tanks have a little bit of a more difficult time with the initial establishment and maintenence of threat - especially as your gear level grows higher and higher. If you're healing a tank in Qarn as your example, and he's level 35 Paladin, that means his gear is at best i35 HQ (And even that is unlikely for most players taking their tanks through these levels), while yours is at 37 HQ garunteed from your current level 53 WHM. This means the Paladin will have a harder time holding threat as he can't generate as much as a 37 HQ paladin would, and he'll be taking harder hits / hits that take more of his limited HP.


...

As for the message regarding cures during the pull and the regen, it's moreso about timing. Think of it this way:

There are three mobs in a group. A warrior is running towards them, and you have Regen on him. The warrior uses a Tomahawk on the first mob so that they all approach him, and prepares to use flash as soon as they are gathered.
-> Scenario A: You had a Regen on the tank. The Regen ticks after the Tomahawk went off, but before the Flash (Very possible since there is a GCD on tanks of about 2-2.5 seconds~.) You will not get threat from the mob he Tomahawked, but you WILL get threat from the mobs that were linked to it that he hadn't flashed yet. You'll still build threat on all 3 - but only the two he hadn't flashed yet will come towards you. This is why Regen during the pull is hard on some tanks, since they aren't quite good at timing their flash on the pass-by yet.
-> Scenario B: You had a regen on the ank. The regen ticks after his Flash went off. All three mobs will still be on the tank, and you'll be safe. This is because he used a hate-generating skill on all 3.

Let's take that same group of mobs and say that instead of Tomahawk, the tank runs straight in and Flashes or Overpowers the group.
-> Scenario A: The mobs will aggro the tank before his skill goes off, and ANY skill used before he manages to use his skill will pull the mobs off him.

Basically, it's mostly up to the tank to be able to use their skills to grab threat. Once you have the Tank-based abilities, you will find tanks hold threat a LOT better. At times, tanks in level synched content forget to put their Tank stance up during large pulls, and that can lead to some rougher times.

-I mostly use Shroud for mana regen in boss fights or really big pulls because of the long cool-down, but is it worth it on regular trash pulls for keeping my enmity lower while I use my healing stick?

There's a few ways people can use Shroud*
1. At around 60-80%. Keep in mind, that you keep recovering mana over time after using Shroud of Saints, so in some prolonged (boss) fights or longer pulls, using it earlier and continuing to heal will allow you a second/third use of it later on.
2. For threat if they know an add will spawn while things such as Medica II or regens are ticking. This one's a little more rare and speaks more to bad tanks who don't have snapthreat ready for an add.

[LineageRazor]

As a general rule of thumb, watch the way your tank pulls. You'll see that the mobs' names are different colors depending on whether the tank has managed to get threat on them yet. Unclaimed mobs that are not yet on the attack will have yellow names. Once the first mob is grabbed, you'll see the name on that mob turn red. The other mobs that attack at the same time that one is pull will NOT turn red, but will darken slightly to a lightish orange color. Those are the mobs that are going to come gunning for you if you do any curing (including Regen).

A good tank will try to turn every mob red asap as they pull, but less experienced tanks may pull multiple packs without cementing hate on each group first. Those are the ones to watch out for, and hold back the regen.

Note that even for good tanks, there are cases where cementing hate right away isn't always practical. In Amdapor Keep, for example, high-level tanks like to pull a ton of mobs at once, since they are very weak compared to other level 50 dungeon mobs. At certain points in the dungeon, there are statues that animate when the tank gets close. These statues are spread out, so running to each and flashing takes quite a bit of time; many tanks, even experienced ones, will simply trigger them and keep running.

Lastly, if you DO get regen hate (or any kind of hate, really), the best thing to do is run right up to the tank. This will allow the tank to quickly pull the hate off of your with a Flash/Overpower/Unleash or two. Don't run away, or around in circles, as that just makes it harder for the tank to pull them off you - and it stops you from healing yourself and others at a time when it may be crucial.

[tinythinker]

(1/2)

You'll see that the mobs' names are different colors depending on whether the tank has managed to get threat on them yet. Unclaimed mobs that are not yet on the attack will have yellow names. Once the first mob is grabbed, you'll see the name on that mob turn red. The other mobs that attack at the same time that one is pull will NOT turn red, but will darken slightly to a lightish orange color. Those are the mobs that are going to come gunning for you if you do any curing (including Regen).

Never noticed that name color change. I do recall names being red but not yellow. Good to know. Thank you. Will be very helpful.

[tinythinker]

(2/2)

Lastly, if you DO get regen hate (or any kind of hate, really), the best thing to do is run right up to the tank. This will allow the tank to quickly pull the hate off of your with a Flash/Overpower/Unleash or two. Don't run away, or around in circles, as that just makes it harder for the tank to pull them off you - and it stops you from healing yourself and others at a time when it may be crucial.

Yeah I try.

[tinythinker]

Basically, every action you take, regardless if it's a self-buff, a heal, a damaging attack, or a high-enmity move from a tank, causes threat.
For example.... <snip>

Too long for me to requote and reply, but thank you very much. This and the name color change reply make the good advice already given even clearer.

[Kerii]

Eidolon summed up everything I would have said in a neat package.

[reiichi]

Hi OP,

I didn't see anyone else mention it while skimming, but there are enmity bars that load in your party list if you select a monster. If you sort your party so it's easy to track (like say, you, other healers, tanks, DPS), you can easily check who has the highest enmity and who is close to stealing it. It's easy to glance at for boss fights, but for a large pack of monsters, less so. (So I'd say the next time you fight a boss, keep them selected for a moment and watch your party list get the little enmity bars when the tank pulls. You can see how a quick DPS attack fills it quickly at the beginning, but not as fast once the tank has established hate).

Hope this is helpful! When I first started, I struggled with regen on pulls and Titan as well! Got so many people to rage quit because I was on a controller and couldn't dodge the landslides. (Legacy camera saved my life)

[CrystalRainbow]

Here is the work around....

Have you tried running up to the tank?
This means they may turn to you but the tank has time to toss out an AOE Enmity!

This results in you getting hit but tank quickly taking hate back without having to run after you.
Then you can go back to DPSing.

[EusisLandale]

Didn't see it mentioned, but using Stoneskin at the end of a pull before moving on to the next can help considerably by just giving you more time on the next before you actually need to start healing. Swiftcasting another one when pulling multiple groups can potentially be preferable to an actual heal as well, as long as everything currently pulled has been clipped by the tank with something. There'll be some enmity generated for having done something, but still less than an actual heal.