Drk opener as mt

[JackFross]

An alternative is unmend, wait about half a second, then plunge into hard slash. The boss will run to the position you plunged from, you will not clip a gcd, extra burst enmity, and you don't lose a fraction of plunge potency from waiting. The differences are very small obviously, but it is misleading to say that using plunge at the start is always wrong. From a melee dps perspective it is the same for the case I mentioned because the boss will move at the same speed and end up in the same location.

I agree about opening with scourge in grit being weaker; it is a mistake I make too often out of reflex because of its priority in general.

Yeah, I mean - I don't see the issue with that, outside of the issue of the argument for doing it this way being really weak.

You're arguing, as I've shown, over amounts of enmity gain that are less than even the weakest attack from any DPS class going full tilt. +100, +200 - every basic skill from every Job beats these two numbers. It's not a notable gain, but it is a substantial loss of offensive potency. And that's basically the bottom line. It's for sure a personal preference choice in your suggestion and the other ones, but that personal preference is

1. Marginal hate gains that will have literally 0 impact on how long I need to use Grit
or
2. DPS gains by using my main dps off-gcd attacks after Grit has been dropped and Slashing debuff has been applied.

I personally think the cons of 1 are significant, where the cons of 2 are not, but meh. As long as you're not using Plunge to tank a boss at the far north of the map where it spawns, I ain't got anything negative to say about your choice outside of "I personally do not agree with that decision, but you are welcome to make it."

1. I don’t think I advocated the use of Scourge on the pull, I believe you are directing this at the other poster.

Nope, that was someone else.
Yes, it would be +270 enmity gain in the second GCD to do it that way, +540 overall gain before the end of the first Power Slash combo.

The thing is that the total enmity generated by the lesser rotation is:
(450 + 150 + 100 + 770 + 1650) * 2.7 = 8424
The modified would be 8424 + 540 = 8964 = +6% enmity generated in the first 4 GCDs.

AKA: Not a noteworthy gain. A gain, absolutely, but not a gain that I would sacrifice DPS for. Extra enmity frontloaded into Grit is good, but it's much more beneficial to do this by feeding a second Power Slash before dropping Grit than spending a Plunge on the pull. You absolutely /can/ use your other stuff in Grit to start, sure. It might not even be a loss, if you would end up seeing +1 of said skill in the fight over what the guy who holds them sees. However, Plunge still shouldn't be between Unmend and Hard Slash.

2. I’m afraid you assume too much.

I'm not neglecting that time. I'm saying that time does not exist. There's no delay at all between Unmend and Hard Slash, GCD-wise. When the GCD is re-filled, you're hitting Hard Slash and you're within range of the boss. Always. I mean, I do that on PLD all the time (and admittedly have not tanked much on DRK recently) and Shield Lob > Fast Blade is identical to Unmend > Hard Slash.

3. I guess instead of saying “competent dps” I should just say you will not always be able to get away with just one PS combo in Grit. If you don’t want to have to go back into Grit or use PS outside of Grit (and we seem to agree you shouldn’t) it is likely going to take more than that to ensure you do not have to.

Yup! And I agree with you. I think in even gear, you'd need so few additional PS out of Grit that it becomes a gain to drop after one initial combo, but I can't realistically test that with my current DRK.

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

I will point out a few things here:
1. DP is 150 potency, Plunge is 200.
2. DP is not a gap closer - it doesn't modify the pull in any notable way other than injecting additional potency.
3. DP is a magic attack. It gets no bonus from Storm's Eye or Dancing Edge. Plunge does.

Note that I never once said "do not use Dark Passenger on the pull" - it is significantly less of a loss to use that as an additional off-gcd Enmity boost in grit than to burn Plunge there.

[ruskie]

You regard plunge as a potency loss for the melee dps as they must use their gap closers or sacrifice a sec or two to catch up, but do not address that plunge is an asset to DRK for holding enmity with ranged dps. You better believe as soon as you use Unmend your BLM is going to go ham. Plunge helps keep you ahead of the ranged dps in enmity. If they have to wait for you to run the rest of the way to the target that is a one or two second dps loss for them.

If you pull with plunge - one thing and one thing alone will happen... aggro yoyo vs ranged... If you pull with unmend - you get to keep your aggro and keep going with your combo.

Each time I had a DRK pull with plunge that happened. When your first hit crits for 3k+ a plunge won't do anything vs it. Another factor that nobody I think mentioned.

Dragoons have battle litany, bards have foe requiem - a bard positions somewhere such that they can sing foe before pull in such a way that when the boss is pulled and positioned properly it gets in range without the bard needing to move. This also should ensure dragoons are in range of the whole party for battle litany. If you on the other hand pull with plunge... boss won't get foe up and most likely half the party won't get battle litany as well unless you run near the now oddly positioned boss.

[Chronons]

Note that I never once said "do not use Dark Passenger on the pull" - it is significantly less of a loss to use that as an additional off-gcd Enmity boost in grit than to burn Plunge there.

Oh, I did not mean to imply that you did. Apologies if it came off that way. Its just something I noticed when I dug into fflogs. I am thankful for the discussion as it is what lead me to seek out this information. Also, thank you for all of the good info on Plunge pulling. As I said I don't typically do it, bc I like having it for DoT management, but I know a lot who do. Will be directing them here in the future so they may benefit from your wisdom as well.

[Chronons]

If you pull with plunge - one thing and one thing alone will happen... aggro yoyo vs ranged... If you pull with unmend - you get to keep your aggro and keep going with your combo.

When I say say pulling with Plunge I am referring to using Unmend>Plunge to reach the target as opposed to Unmend>run to the target. It was in response to JackFoss' post that challenged what seemed to be conventional wisdom among DRKs in general. I, and I hope nobody else, would never advocate using Plunge as a replacement for Unmend.

[Yuni_Queen]

I, and I hope nobody else, would never advocate using Plunge as a replacement for Unmend.

Did you happen to read everything @Drkdays posted here in recent 5 pages?
Have a pleasant reading.

Warning:
Contains cancer and salt.

[Lyth]

Although this thread is more focused on a general-purpose opener for DRK, sometimes it helps to think of it as more of a set of priorities and tailor your decisions to each fight.

I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

This is interesting. However, to get a sense of an individual tank's priority system in the opener, we have to watch how they approach a few different fights. Let's take a look at one of the cases you mentioned. I've omitted reprisal and LB procs for consistency.

A5S:
Fausts: DA BP > Unmend Salted > HS DP > SpS DD LB > PS DA > Grit off > Scourge (Faust 1) BW > Scourge (Faust 2) C+S > DASE > Scourge
Note: This is tanked with each tank on a different add. Grit is turned off at 10s.

Ratfinks: DA > Unmend Plunge > HS C+S DP > SpS LB > PS Salted DD > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 35s.

A6S: DD > Unmend DP LB > HS > SpS Conv > PS Pot > Grit off > Scourge BW > HS DA C+S > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 10s. Salted is used after about 18s.

A7S: Unmend DP LB > HS > SpS Conv Salted > PS Pot > Grit off > Scourge BW > HS DA C+S > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 10s.

A8S was an OT opener, so I've excluded it.

General Notes:
This group is using a NIN, so the DRK has access to Shadewalker, allowing for a single PS opener. A pot is usually used after PS and Grit is then dropped. DA C+S is typically held until Grit is dropped to get more potency out of it. This gets followed up by Scourge and a DA SE combo. Plunge typically happens quite late, at around 20s in, sometime after the first DA SE combo goes out. I'm not entirely sure what the rationale is.

A5S Team Faust: This is tanked with two tanks for the initial Fausts. The pre-pull DA is applied to DP. If this were a single target situation, DA DP would give you only 100 extra potency, and would be better spent on a DA SE later on for 140 extra potency. Because there are two targets (200 potency), we're past the minimum break even point. This only really becomes efficient at 4 adds (DA DP gives you 57% the potency gain of DA C+S at 2 mobs, 86% at 3 mobs, and 114% at 4 adds), but you only see this happen in the opener.

If you were solo-tanking this (which tends to be the standard PUG approach), you would probably open with AD instead of Unmend. This would prevent you from using a pre-pull DA, so you would probably end up delaying DA DP if you wanted to use it.

Salted Earth gets applied earlier than usual, again because this is multi-target. Hummel lands at 38s for this group, which is another factor in favour for using it earlier. The pot is held for Hummel.

One point on Scourge. It's 500 potency over 30s. Each hit of your Del combo is 226 potency on average, and each hit of your DASE combo is 267 potency on average. Scourge reaches about 260 potency after 12 seconds, so you generally don't want to apply it unless it's going to be ticking for at least 15 seconds. In this scenario, the two Fausts get a Scourge each at around 17s, and Hummel lands at 38s. As clear times become shorter, Scourge will probably get dropped from this opener.

A5S Ratfinks: This is the odd one out. The first thing that you should notice is that Grit stays on until 35s. This is due to the increased incoming damage from the headache stacks. Concussion ends at 32s. Because Grit is kept on, there's no point in holding DA C+S. The pot is held because the boss takes less damage when he is large.

This opener starts with Unmend > Plunge. The boss is animation locked at the start of the fight due to his transformation, so you do save travel time in this case by using Plunge as a gap closer. This wasn't the case in the other fights we're looking at, where the mob will move towards you on pull.

A6S/A67: The A6S and A7S openers are similar, and are probably more representative of a standard pull. The difference is that the A6S opener starts with DD pre-pull, to soften the damage around when the first Brute Force comes in at 7s. Salted gets delayed until about 18 s, probably to allow for repositioning after the mines which come out at 16 s.

So, should you copy this? Well, it depends. If you don't have access to a NIN's Shadewalker, you may need to do two PS combos. This will delay you from turning off Grit. If that's the case, you may not want to delay C+S, which would lead you to opening with DA pre-pull. If you do, DP should come after C+S if it's a single target fight. And each fight should ideally be treated on a case by case basis.

As a general rule of thumb, you don't want to hold on to a cooldown for longer than its recast time. oGCDs with higher potencies and shorter recasts take priority. Proc based oGCDs should be used sooner rather than later on a boss with physical autos, especially if you're going to put up DD early.

[JackFross]

A few things need to be pointed out!

A5S Team Faust: This is tanked with two tanks for the initial Fausts. The pre-pull DA is applied to DP. If this were a single target situation, DA DP would give you only 100 extra potency, and would be better spent on a DA SE later on for 140 extra potency. Because there are two targets (200 potency), we're past the minimum break even point. This only really becomes efficient at 4 adds (DA DP gives you 57% the potency gain of DA C+S at 2 mobs, 86% at 3 mobs, and 114% at 4 adds), but you only see this happen in the opener.

This is inaccurate.
DA+DP is always mana efficient to use at 2+ mobs. It's a classic trap to consider it an alternative to DA+C&S, when it just isn't. You can DA+DP and DA+C&S and only miss out on 1 DA+SE - a gain of 120 potency, compared to the gain of 200 from DA+DP.

A5S Ratfinks: This is the odd one out. The first thing that you should notice is that Grit stays on until 35s. This is due to the increased incoming damage from the headache stacks. Concussion ends at 32s. Because Grit is kept on, there's no point in holding DA C+S. The pot is held because the boss takes less damage when he is large.

This opener starts with Unmend > Plunge. The boss is animation locked at the start of the fight due to his transformation, so you do save travel time in this case by using Plunge as a gap closer. This wasn't the case in the other fights we're looking at, where the mob will move towards you on pull.

As a tank on this fight, you get precisely 9 GCDs before the boss hits you with Concussion. 9 gcds is only ~18s of time. The reason you skip Potion here is for several reasons.
1. He is small for the first two GCDs of the fight
-- This is why you C&S early on. It's more beneficial to use it at 100% potency, rather than holding it 35-50s for him to go small, or using it at 30% reduced effectiveness after Concussion. It's also important to note whether or not the group skipped the first dash! If they DIDN'T, it's a huge loss to hold it. If they DID, it might not be as bad, but still half the cooldown.
2. You wanna use it early to get all 15s, but using it early means skipping Plunge or C&S in the opener - your two strongest ogcd attacks. I would also argue that Scourge should be your first hit, here, but I don't do it on DRK, so what do I know. I just know PLD is GB>RA>GB before concussion. I figure DRK could be SC>PS>DA+SE>SS>Concussion? I dunno.
3. The boss is stationary on pull, so using Plunge is identical to using Unmend.

[Ragnorak]

DRK MT opener? Have a WAR pull-slave and Provoke into cruising later. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

OK I lol'd pretty loud

[KorenA]

This thread was some insight on improving dps. My thanks to you all as fellow players.

[tremor24]

Yeah, I mean - I don't see the issue with that, outside of the issue of the argument for doing it this way being really weak.

You're arguing, as I've shown, over amounts of enmity gain that are less than even the weakest attack from any DPS class going full tilt. +100, +200 - every basic skill from every Job beats these two numbers. It's not a notable gain, but it is a substantial loss of offensive potency. And that's basically the bottom line. It's for sure a personal preference choice in your suggestion and the other ones, but that personal preference is

1. Marginal hate gains that will have literally 0 impact on how long I need to use Grit
or
2. DPS gains by using my main dps off-gcd attacks after Grit has been dropped and Slashing debuff has been applied.

I personally think the cons of 1 are significant, where the cons of 2 are not, but meh. As long as you're not using Plunge to tank a boss at the far north of the map where it spawns, I ain't got anything negative to say about your choice outside of "I personally do not agree with that decision, but you are welcome to make it."

I do not believe it is as much of a dps loss that you think for a couple of reasons. You are front loading an off-gcd attack by at least 4 gcds during a time you won't be doing anything else anyway. Which is at a minimum 1/3 of a plunge wasted, and it can not reliable fit with any other off-gcd's due to jump delay so other abilities are being delayed, at a minimum blood weapon is delayed. So, 0.8 damage due to grit vs. 1.21 from slashing debuff and trick attack minus 1/3 of a 1.1 potency later assuming just slashing debuff is about 0.84 compared to using it right after unmend. Yeah, you may also get litany, but the damage difference is negligible and at the cost of delaying another off-gcd. Overall it seems to be a wash and front loading plunge after unmend in this way is practically unnoticeable. I simply disagree that it is a substantial loss of dps potency as you mentioned.

It is approximately equal damage if delayed by four gcds, and if you end up even delaying it one more than four gcds then you are losing dps.