3.2 drk vs pld dps

[Brian_]

In terms of raw numbers? Dark Knight wins by a landslide. Their DPS rotation has a higher average potency-per-GCD than PLD does, and their "DPS stance" (not really a stance, so much as a lack of tanking stance) gives them a pretty significant boost to their overall output. They're not going to top WAR in Deliverance, but neither can some DPS classes.

In the MT slot, DRK actually has the potential to beat out WAR for DPS, if it's played right, while also providing near-PLD levels of damage mitigation.

If you bring PLD as MT, you do so because they have the greatest capacity to mitigate spike damage and tankbusters, and not for their DPS output. If you bring them as OT, you do so because of their spot-healing ability with Clemency, Cover (which can help cheese certain mechanics and swaps), and Divine Veil (a group-wide 2500 HP shield can be extremely helpful), and not for their DPS output.

No DPS class should ever lose to a WAR.

And the MT / OT definitions are irrelevant in A6S and A7S. I don't know about A8S since I'm not there yet. You bring a PLD because you want to bring a PLD. The strengths are exactly the same as they were pre 3.2. It's just that now, the content is a bit more favorable to PLDs and their DPS isn't as bad.

You bring them if the damage has a physical skew and/or Sheltron works well. You bring them if HG works well vs. the content. You bring them for DV.

Clemency did not become a relevant skill with the cast time reduction. Cover has some cute uses but it's still not really impactful utility.

[Jpec07]

I can honestly tell you that Clemency is at best mediocre. I am 100% certain that all high DPS PLDs (see fflogs) don't ever use that skill unless if there are downtimes or when 1 healer is down and you are forced to use it to recover. Or maybe if your healers are so bad. Other than that? PLD just dps away.

Well right. Clemency takes two GCDs to cast and does zero damage, while also preventing you from autoattacking. It follows naturally that the players who have maximized their DPS aren't going to use it, because it can represent a substantial DPS loss.

But damage output isn't everything.

It's true that progression groups will probably want to pump out as much damage as they can get, to avoid hard enrages. But groups who are dying to mechanics, or to DPS/healers taking avoidable damage can really be helped out by a Paladin throwing an extra Cure 1.5 out. Once a fight is on farm? Clemency loses its value. But while a group is still learning the fight, the extra spot heal can be really handy.

The reasons why PLD is "better" vs DRK in this current patch is because of safety (instead of more damage, in which DRK excels in) from stacking RoH and Monk's DK in 1 boss, Divine Veils and Hallowed Ground cheesing. Clemency has nothing to do with how much better PLD is atm, almost nonexistent if I might add.

I said nothing about which is better. For most groups, unless you're pushing progression really hard at extremely low gear levels, the difference isn't going to matter. All three tanks function in both roles.

If the argument is about Clemency enabling healers to do DPS more, it's bullshit. Why? Strong WHM = more DPS.

On this we agree. Clemency isn't going to do anything to help healers DPS more unless the PLD and healer(s) are in lock-step.

No DPS class should ever lose to a WAR.

In general, after 3.2, this is accurate. However, if it's a PUG learning party, you could get a WAR who seriously outgears someone. I've seen it a couple times. Fell Cleavus is real.

And the MT / OT definitions are irrelevant in A6S and A7S. I don't know about A8S since I'm not there yet. You bring a PLD because you want to bring a PLD. The strengths are exactly the same as they were pre 3.2. It's just that now, the content is a bit more favorable to PLDs and their DPS isn't as bad.

You bring them if the damage has a physical skew and/or Sheltron works well. You bring them if HG works well vs. the content. You bring them for DV.

Clemency did not become a relevant skill with the cast time reduction. Cover has some cute uses but it's still not really impactful utility.

Highlighting the important bit, because that's ultimately what it boils down to. We can argue about the hypothetical situational uses of various abilities until we're blue in the face and our fingers are bloody nubs, but it boils down to using whatever job you're most comfortable with. This tier has done a pretty good job of ensuring that, so long as you don't duplicate jobs, and so long as people know what they're doing, you're going to be able to succeed with almost any comp out there.

[Brian_]

Well right. Clemency takes two GCDs to cast and does zero damage, while also preventing you from autoattacking. It follows naturally that the players who have maximized their DPS aren't going to use it, because it can represent a substantial DPS loss.

But damage output isn't everything.

It's true that progression groups will probably want to pump out as much damage as they can get, to avoid hard enrages. But groups who are dying to mechanics, or to DPS/healers taking avoidable damage can really be helped out by a Paladin throwing an extra Cure 1.5 out. Once a fight is on farm? Clemency loses its value. But while a group is still learning the fight, the extra spot heal can be really handy.

No, not really. Healers have their own rotation. They have to quickly assess and budget their healing in response to a fight's damage intake. What they do is not really any different than what tanks do with their CD planning. You know what damage is coming. You know what tools you have to deal with it. The rest is about structuring an overall rotation to cover an entire fight while leaving enough of a margin of error.

So random spot healing does not really help because it's generally not needed. And, if it is needed, it's a sign you have bigger problems.

In general, after 3.2, this is accurate. However, if it's a PUG learning party, you could get a WAR who seriously outgears someone. I've seen it a couple times. Fell Cleavus is real.

I out DPS plenty of bad players. That has nothing to do with the classes themselves. That was the original statement. "They're not going to top WAR in Deliverance, but neither can some DPS classes."

Highlighting the important bit, because that's ultimately what it boils down to. We can argue about the hypothetical situational uses of various abilities until we're blue in the face and our fingers are bloody nubs, but it boils down to using whatever job you're most comfortable with. This tier has done a pretty good job of ensuring that, so long as you don't duplicate jobs, and so long as people know what they're doing, you're going to be able to succeed with almost any comp out there.

I don't know how you can interpret something so wrong. This tier is not easy enough that most groups can bring sub-optimal comps and still expect to clear at a reasonable pace. That much is evidenced by how low the clear rates still are. And, as is, PLD vs. DRK is still a discussion you need to have because they both have their strengths and weaknesses in the content. The gap between the two and the general difficulty of the content isn't at the point where your raid needs 4 more weeks of gear to carry a PLD through content but it still exists.

What I said was you bring a PLD if you need their strengths. Those strengths are better physical mitigation, Sheltron, HG and DV. Not clemency. Not cover. Nothing has really changed. It's just that now, both due to PLD DPS buffs and a shift in the focus of content, groups are not punished as hard for poor DPS.

[Jpec07]

No, not really. Healers have their own rotation. They have to quickly assess and budget their healing in response to a fight's damage intake. What they do is not really any different than what tanks do with their CD planning. You know what damage is coming. You know what tools you have to deal with it. The rest is about structuring an overall rotation to cover an entire fight while leaving enough of a margin of error.

So random spot healing does not really help because it's generally not needed. And, if it is needed, it's a sign you have bigger problems.

Did you not read what I said about its usefulness when learning? When a group takes more damage than they should, or the healers haven't figured out the pace, before they've established all of that, Clemency can absolutely help keep people up for longer, and help the group recover from someone's mistake. Yes, after a few runs most people should know what they can and can't do, and should know when they need to do what, and how to avoid damage. But if groups are still dying to mechanics and avoidable damage, Clemency can help to "idiot proof" the raid a little bit. The same goes for Cover, but I digress.

I out DPS plenty of bad players. That has nothing to do with the classes themselves. That was the original statement.

So...a bad player is not only someone who doesn't minmax their class, but also someone who has 5-10 iLvls less gear than you? Sorry if that's not what you're saying; I'm just trying to make sure I understand correctly.

I don't know how you can interpret something so wrong. This tier is not easy enough that most groups can bring sub-optimal comps and still expect to clear at a reasonable pace. That much is evidenced by how low the clear rates still are. And, as is, PLD vs. DRK is still a discussion you need to have because they both have their strengths and weaknesses in the content. The gap between the two and the general difficulty of the content isn't at the point where your raid needs 4 more weeks of gear to carry a PLD through content but it still exists.

What I said was you bring a PLD if you need their strengths. Those strengths are better physical mitigation, Sheltron, HG and DV. Not clemency. Not cover.

I'll disagree slightly, with an asterisk, as I haven't found a static yet. I still maintain that Clemency and Cover can be good while a group is still learning how to navigate a fight, but I will agree that they are more of a nice-to-have than a defining reason to pick PLD over DRK.

However, I do believe that the role-specific gear this tier is likely helping matters in terms of group comp. It's easier to jump between jobs now, and with the exception of the weapon (and any minmaxing in materia or divergent BiS), gearing one tank job gears them all. If someone has all three at 60, they can more easily switch to the tank that's more suited to a given fight.

[Brian_]

Did you not read what I said about its usefulness when learning?

And do you not understand how healing works? As a healer, you have outs. They are benediction, swift cast, tetra, assize, lustrate, indom, essential dignity, lightspeed, nocturnal aspected benefic, etc. All instant (though some have a slight animation delay). No content in this game is so demanding that Clemency will make any real difference in progression or otherwise.

There is a reason why everything but A8S has been solo healed or why there is so much room for healers to DPS. Healers are more than adequately equipped to deal with raid damage under normal circumstances. Under other circumstances -- like having vul stacks in A6S, having 2+ highwire stacks or suppuration stacks in A7S, etc. -- Clemency is not going to save anyone.

So...a bad player is not only someone who doesn't minmax their class, but also someone who has 5-10 iLvls less gear than you? Sorry if that's not what you're saying; I'm just trying to make sure I understand correctly.

What does a person's ilevel have to do with the design and balance of their class? DPS classes do more DPS than tank classes. Period.

I'll disagree slightly, with an asterisk, as I haven't found a static yet. I still maintain that Clemency and Cover can be good while a group is still learning how to navigate a fight, but I will agree that they are more of a nice-to-have than a defining reason to pick PLD over DRK.

So you're basically saying that you actually can't support anything you've said? Okay.

[Jpec07]

Snip.

I'll stop debating it then and concede, since you're right; the fact is that I don't have savage raiding experience, either as a tank or as a healer. There have been times when Clemency has helped me help healers clean up in DF groups (random party members can take a surprising amount of damage in lower-tuned content, and I've had healers thank me for answering other players' inability to get out of damage), but I'm arguing hypotheticals against real experience here when I talk about savage. Just because I can see where it could potentially be useful doesn't mean it actually is.

[Synestra]

So random spot healing does not really help because it's generally not needed. And, if it is needed, it's a sign you have bigger problems.

If its random then it will do nothing but if you coordinate it with healers you can say what TB's you are healing and what not, then they know when to stay in cleric even when TB is coming and when to turn it off and heal instead. Is this needed? ofc not but it makes PLD atleast slighlty more fun to play.