Can Monk Outweigh the Support of Either a DRG or NIN?

[PArcher]

What do you mean by "support"; purely dps, or actual support (mantra, Dragon kick, shadewalker, smokescreen)

Also, what are your tanks?

Currently, DPS and healers need vit melds to survive; heck, survival is just as important as dpsing this raid tier. If you have a pld/war comp, MNK becomes essential over a Drg just for Dragon kick, Imo.

Now, it is different for things on farm and for faceroll content, but...what does it really matter what you bring for them?

[Slyqc]

@Violette

Yeah, all that is cool and everything but... yeah I'm actually going to bring you some lights here.
Same fight, same day, different composition.
You'll notice there's no AST in either of the team composition I will show you, so there's no debanlancing from Arrow and Balance card.
You'll notice I'm showing you fights where I am, so please look at Sly Hawkeye's DPS.
Here's a fight with no Dragoon :
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/2mnK74...pe=damage-done

Here's a fight WITH a Dragoon :
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/2mnK74...pe=damage-done

So yes, the Dragoon himself will give easily around 200 DPS to a Bard / MCH and that's not even counting the crit bonus it will give the entire team.

(Text too long)

[Slyqc]

(He's back, pray for your soul)

I would say Dragoon is pretty much the best supportive class for the melee DPS, so indeed Monk normally got slightly better DPS than a Dragoon, but please, don't forget to take in count his supportive ability.
The original question is, can a Monk outweight the support of a Dragoon and and Ninja.
Outweighting Ninja is probably possible since Ninja got the lowest melee DPS right now and even if he got Goad which is cool and all, he also got some enmity control but nothing as effective as the Dragoon.
In the end Monk could probably outweight that support with his DPS and Augmented Mantra that gives healers a nice rest, but I'm seriously doubting that Monk can outweight Dragoon supportive abilities.

[Greywolfamakir]

I have played during Gordias Savage like NIN and MNK, and when SE released Midas I changed to DRG, and Imo DRG is the mandatory job for every party searching for the best Raid DPS comp. (tbh i really hate DRG aesthetically, his gameplay is fun, but in terms of aesthetics i dont like it at all)

Disembowel for BRD/MCH is really strong with MCH/BRD doing really high DPS in Midas, and Battle Litany is literally doubling the critical strike chance of some jobs like BLM or SMN.

[Waliel]

Here's a fight with no Dragoon :
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/2mnK74...pe=damage-done

Here's a fight WITH a Dragoon :
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/2mnK74...pe=damage-done

So yes, the Dragoon himself will give easily around 200 DPS to a Bard / MCH and that's not even counting the crit bonus it will give the entire team.

Your DPS before DRG would need to be about 2000 to get that big of an increase, if it's a roughly 10% increase all things considered.

Going by those logs, one could also say that bringing a DRG lowers BLM DPS by 200. Doing a quick comparison, everything in the second log has significantly higher crit rate than the first one. You just got more BL procs and a lot higher crit rate than Litany alone gives you. Not really comparable.

[Neophyte]

on a 12 mins fight, it seems like ninja brings 1.67% more raid dmg overall because of trick attack, and that's assuming ninja is doing as much dps as a monk.

You can't just say 'TA is up 10s every 60s, so you get 10% for 1/6 of a fight, which is 1,67% for the whole fight". This is SOOOO wrong and could only be right, if everyone is spamming a single attack with a set potency ALL THE TIME.

It depends on what attacks the group uses when TA is up.

E.g. for SMN:
The worst possible TA would buff only 3xRuin+Ruin2 for (80+80+80+80)*0,1 = 32 extra potency from TA.
A better TA would be in DWT and buff [swiftcast]Ruin3+Tridisaster(+Contagion)+2xRuin3+Ruin2+Fester+Deathflare, which is ((1420+200+200+200+80+300+400)*1,1)*0,1 = 308 extra potency from TA.
If RS is up it's even ((1420+200+200+200+80+300+ 400)*1,1*1,2)*0,1 = 370 extra potency.

Edit: forgot bl, so it's even more like 400 potency.

[Violette]

@Violette

Yeah, all that is cool and everything but... yeah I'm actually going to ignore everything you said and rant about dps

If you had actually read what I said, you would have gotten the key of what I said.

DPS is not as important as in Gordias and Paladins are now viable.


So let me try again:

Int down debuff is always mandatory for progression, as have vitality melds become. The moment you take a dragoon (and you're already taking a ninja because they have the insane burst capabilities which are the only DPS checks in Midas), you are locked into a dark knight for your main tank, to get that int down. Why is int down so important? Because the majority of raid wide damages /killing mechanics in ffxiv are MAGIC damage. See perpetual Ray, splashes in a3s, a6s, the fun that was t13, etc.

Because of Drk having int down and drg bringing more damage (though monk scales much better with gear so this might change) in a damage check heavy environment, paladin and monk got pushed to the side because their support is all in DEFENSIVE utilities, which were not needed in Gordias. (And the suck that was Pld)

Monk brings more healing, more defensive debuff and the option of a paladin, which has much more defensive utility.

Which is the point. If you take a monk, you get the option of a paladin.
If you don't, you take a Drk for int debuff. And then a warrior because warriors are just better.

[Jhett_Magnum]

What about BLM/SMN/DRG/ BRD groups aren't they the highest DPS combo?

[Slyqc]

@Violette

What are you talking about? If you're a DPS you shouldn't have Vitality melded on your gear. Vitality given by DPS food should be enough.

[Greywolfamakir]

What about BLM/SMN/DRG/ BRD groups aren't they the highest DPS combo?

Current high DPS comp looks like DRG/NIN/MCH/BLM. (Battle Litany, Disembowel, Trick Attack, Hypercharge)

BLM/SMN/DRG/BRD is good, but is lower than DRG/NIN/MCH/BLM in terms of overall DPS.

@Violette

What are you talking about? If you're a DPS you shouldn't have Vitality melded on your gear. Vitality given by DPS food should be enough.

Vitality melded is pretty common when you are doing progress on A8S actually, I guess you are not doing progress on A8S and You did not know it.