tanks not using cooldowns?

[Jpec07]

You realize this is the equivalent of arguing Benediction should not be in the game because if everyone was doing what they are supposed to then a full heal is never necessary. I'll let WHM's know using Benediction is a waste of time. Just let them die because a group wipe will teach them a lesson and that is more valuable. (sarcasm)

Except not quite.

Benediction is basically idiot-proof. If a WHM uses Benediction, there's no way that anyone can mess up its effect. Once used, it's done, and that's that.

CC requires coordination. It requires mobs to not be taking damage. It requires AoE to be stopped completely, or it is ruined. It requires the group to anticipate its use and count on it. If you AoE sleep and the SMN or MNK doesn't get the memo, you've wasted a GCD

CC moves can be useful, but they require more coordination than you'll typically find in DF groups or the open world at present.

[MagiusNecros]

Kinda hoping they give BLM's Petrification(Breakga or even Break) in the next expansion. Thaumaturges in Syrcus Tower and in the Aetherochemical Facility have it. Or give Sleep a Petrify trait or something. Gets kinda irritating to see enemy only skills that you should have no questions asked. And lemme tell ya having a AoE 10 second stun would be all sorts of wonderful which honestly freeze should have been and not a bind. Nerf it in PvP or whatever but it could give BLM a side of utility outside of high damage and the occasional E4E and Apoc.

[Tanathya]

Kinda hoping they give BLM's Petrification(Breakga or even Break) in the next expansion. Thaumaturges in Syrcus Tower and in the Aetherochemical Facility have it. Or give Sleep a Petrify trait or something. Gets kinda irritating to see enemy only skills that you should have no questions asked. And lemme tell ya having a AoE 10 second stun would be all sorts of wonderful which honestly freeze should have been and not a bind. Nerf it in PvP or whatever but it could give BLM a side of utility outside of high damage and the occasional E4E and Apoc.

I was hoping DRK would get Drain back when I saw those THM in Syrcus cast it, of course that was long before tank knight was announced.

[Red_Wolf]

CC requires coordination. It requires mobs to not be taking damage. It requires AoE to be stopped completely, or it is ruined. It requires the group to anticipate its use and count on it. If you AoE sleep and the SMN or MNK doesn't get the memo, you've wasted a GCD

Does it seriously require more coordination to NOT hit a mob than it does to hit a mob? I mean I get what you're saying. There are times when it's tough like halfway through a fight when mobs are stacked, but that's not how CC is generally used unless the tank or healer dies. In which case you just try anything to live.

Instead, think about how you react during a bad pull. Do you really just say 'screw the tank' and start blasting your AoE's while all the scattered mobs are attacking you and the healer? Or do you wait for the tank to gather them all up before you start attacking again? If the tank grabs the mezzed mob when it was better to leave it away from the pack than that's on him or her. I think DPS can show some restraint for the 2 seconds it takes the tank to recollect themselves.

I get frustrated because this is second nature to anyone that played old school MMOs. Now we assume the general MMO population can't stop pushing buttons for 2 GCDs.

[mugikaze]

The tanks are stuck with the though that "ohh i need to save it for when a big damage is coming or when my HP is low..." but in dungeons the most of the time the trash pulls are doing more damage than the bosses especially in large pulls.
Also even if they use CDs during pulls most CDs will be ready by the time they get to the boss so it should be that in dungeons the defensive cooldowns should be cycled and in raids and trials they are used strategically.

[Sarcatica]

The tanks are stuck with the though that "ohh i need to save it for when a big damage is coming or when my HP is low..." but in dungeons the most of the time the trash pulls are doing more damage than the bosses especially in large pulls.
Also even if they use CDs during pulls most CDs will be ready by the time they get to the boss so it should be that in dungeons the defensive cooldowns should be cycled and in raids and trials they are used strategically.

Bosses in normal dungeons hit like wet noodles if you just opt for tank stance throughout the entirety of the dungeons even without CDs. Likewise if tanks just do small pulls. It really takes more than just playing the tank classes to know when to pop CDs rather than praying that those CDs will be up when you need them. And not everyone likes to talk about strategy because they are just in for their own fun in their own ways. Normally really prevalent in the westerns. Instead of getting better, they flame others because it's way easier or just shun those topics.

[Whiteroom]

Does it seriously require more coordination to NOT hit a mob than it does to hit a mob?

Yes.



Obviously it does.




Especially when it is a waste of time in most instances to CC, and when the games meta is speedrun everything. You are not playing those old games, though now I understand why you can't give it up, but not admitting how it doesn't actually go with the way the devs have designed the game is willfully ignoring it.

If the tank pulls big, it is to kill everything, not to CC. If they don't want multiple groups pulled they don't pull them. What is the point of pulling two groups, if you are going to sleep one anyway? If the tank doesn't have aggro, it is either because they did it wrong, or the healer when ape early, in which case, they need to learn how to play.

I get frustrated because this is second nature to anyone that played old school MMOs.

You are not playing an old school MMO. Its not that people don't understand CC, it is not useful in this game, at least not enough to be part of the meta. As others have said, it would be nice if it was, but using it just to use it, doesn't make it useful. It just means you are doing the run slower, because you like to play that way, which is fine, but not useful.

[Red_Wolf]

stuff...

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

[Jpec07]

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

Um, no it's not? You're still leveling your tank from what I can see on your profile, but even fully-geared tanks still need to use CDs in lower-level content. Sure, they may be able to get away with less of it, but if you think that's the case, you are seriously overestimating the effectiveness of gear as relates to general mitigation.

His point stands, and I agree with it. It very often does require more coordination to get people to stop what they're doing than it does to just kill things harder. AoE is a big part of many jobs' rotations and abilities. And especially when DoTs are involved (read: most AoE abilities in the game), they are literally incapable of stopping on a dime. Their DoTs will keep going, and will break the CC. And AoE is also not structured in this game to be able to avoid individual enemies. If they're in range, they're going to take damage.

CC is very probably not going to save a tank, much less a group.

[Red_Wolf]

Um, no it's not?

Yes it was. Even to the point where Whiteroom stated that Devs meant for dungeons to be speed runs, "when the games meta is speedrun everything".

I'm sure the Devs will be happy to know they did not design Dungeons to be challenging to casual and low level players.