tanks not using cooldowns?

[Red_Wolf]

CC requires coordination. It requires mobs to not be taking damage. It requires AoE to be stopped completely, or it is ruined. It requires the group to anticipate its use and count on it. If you AoE sleep and the SMN or MNK doesn't get the memo, you've wasted a GCD

Does it seriously require more coordination to NOT hit a mob than it does to hit a mob? I mean I get what you're saying. There are times when it's tough like halfway through a fight when mobs are stacked, but that's not how CC is generally used unless the tank or healer dies. In which case you just try anything to live.

Instead, think about how you react during a bad pull. Do you really just say 'screw the tank' and start blasting your AoE's while all the scattered mobs are attacking you and the healer? Or do you wait for the tank to gather them all up before you start attacking again? If the tank grabs the mezzed mob when it was better to leave it away from the pack than that's on him or her. I think DPS can show some restraint for the 2 seconds it takes the tank to recollect themselves.

I get frustrated because this is second nature to anyone that played old school MMOs. Now we assume the general MMO population can't stop pushing buttons for 2 GCDs.

[Whiteroom]

Does it seriously require more coordination to NOT hit a mob than it does to hit a mob?

Yes.



Obviously it does.




Especially when it is a waste of time in most instances to CC, and when the games meta is speedrun everything. You are not playing those old games, though now I understand why you can't give it up, but not admitting how it doesn't actually go with the way the devs have designed the game is willfully ignoring it.

If the tank pulls big, it is to kill everything, not to CC. If they don't want multiple groups pulled they don't pull them. What is the point of pulling two groups, if you are going to sleep one anyway? If the tank doesn't have aggro, it is either because they did it wrong, or the healer when ape early, in which case, they need to learn how to play.

I get frustrated because this is second nature to anyone that played old school MMOs.

You are not playing an old school MMO. Its not that people don't understand CC, it is not useful in this game, at least not enough to be part of the meta. As others have said, it would be nice if it was, but using it just to use it, doesn't make it useful. It just means you are doing the run slower, because you like to play that way, which is fine, but not useful.

[Red_Wolf]

stuff...

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

[Jpec07]

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

Um, no it's not? You're still leveling your tank from what I can see on your profile, but even fully-geared tanks still need to use CDs in lower-level content. Sure, they may be able to get away with less of it, but if you think that's the case, you are seriously overestimating the effectiveness of gear as relates to general mitigation.

His point stands, and I agree with it. It very often does require more coordination to get people to stop what they're doing than it does to just kill things harder. AoE is a big part of many jobs' rotations and abilities. And especially when DoTs are involved (read: most AoE abilities in the game), they are literally incapable of stopping on a dime. Their DoTs will keep going, and will break the CC. And AoE is also not structured in this game to be able to avoid individual enemies. If they're in range, they're going to take damage.

CC is very probably not going to save a tank, much less a group.

[Red_Wolf]

Um, no it's not?

Yes it was. Even to the point where Whiteroom stated that Devs meant for dungeons to be speed runs, "when the games meta is speedrun everything".

I'm sure the Devs will be happy to know they did not design Dungeons to be challenging to casual and low level players.

[Jpec07]

Yes it was. Even to the point where Whiteroom stated that Devs meant for dungeons to be speed runs, "when the games meta is speedrun everything".

I'm sure the Devs will be happy to know they did not design Dungeons to be challenging to casual and low level players.

Did you read the rest of my post, or did you just assume I was agreeing wholesale?

The point of the discussion that you're deviating from is the usefulness of CC as relates mitigation - which is an entirely separate thread than the original point of this thread.

CC is viable for extremely coordinated groups, but this game is not structured in a way where it can be used to save a group from wiping.

[Red_Wolf]

Did you read the rest of my post, or did you just assume I was agreeing wholesale?

The point of the discussion that you're deviating from is the usefulness of CC as relates mitigation - which is an entirely separate thread than the original point of this thread.

CC is viable for extremely coordinated groups, but this game is not structured in a way where it can be used to save a group from wiping.

Yes, I did. The two of you are arguing that CC isn't useful for one specific type of group (end-game players). I'll admit this is probably the largest group in the game for a MMO that's several years old. But that doesn't make your argument any more meaningful. Then, you argued that it is harder to tell people to stop hitting, which I've also already addressed by saying you would generally use CC before the tank gets aggro or on strays from the stack (meaning outside of the omnipotent AoE spells). So it's not that you have to coordinate people to stop. They usually won't hit mobs before the tank gets aggro. At least I hope the majority of DPS players still understand that. So listen... instead of just repeating yourselves with the same specific argument over and over.

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

The last part is just a lie. CC is viable every time you're about to die. I've saved many groups from wiping with just a WHM knockback, snare and sleep. I've watched a BLM friend save groups several times with sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you really need help I can try to go over the basics of CC with you.

[Whiteroom]

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

Serious?

Your argument is based on their being some huge portion of the community in min ilvl gear, who don't know their jobs properly, over pull, and lose aggro, yet will somehow manage to coordinate CC. And do all that in a game where the content is tuned so low that it still doesn't matter.


The game throws gear at you. Any time new dungeons are released, the majority of the people playing them will be 15 or so ilvls above what drops in them anyway. And at low level (leveling)you are on to the next dungeon in about 3 runs anyway.

The devs did not design the dungeons for speed runs, but they are tuned so low that that is where the community sets the meta. So in a way the devs kind of did. They released the content so that it could easily be speed run, and then put the grinds in that made speed runs desiarable.


But as far as our line of discussion pertanining to the OP, it does not, OP is about tanks not using defensive CD, not the merits of CC. That you think top geared people dont need CD is interesting, given how much babying you thing lower geared people need.

Why do you think people who can't hold aggro, in a game this easy, are going to be able to coordinate CC, especially when they are going to have to gain aggro back, and two of the tanks aoe aggro will break the cc anyway? And yes Dots that are applied won't break CC, but almost everything else will, same with the smn that hits bane right after you cast sleep.