tanks not using cooldowns?

[HoodRat]

I think the BLM AoE sleep with an instant cast is by far the most powerful and underrated CC in the game. It could prevent a lot of wipes if used correctly.

That is correct. However...once again...as stated several times before...if people are doing what they're supposed to, CC is a waste of time (except in pvp). If they're not doing what they're supposed to, you have bigger things to worry about than using CC.

[Red_Wolf]

That is correct. However...once again...as stated several times before...if people are doing what they're supposed to, CC is a waste of time (except in pvp). If they're not doing what they're supposed to, you have bigger things to worry about than using CC.

Well those of us who join PUGs and the Leveling Roulette will just have to aspire to join your flawless dungeon instances. WTH man...

You realize this is the equivalent of arguing Benediction should not be in the game because if everyone was doing what they are supposed to then a full heal is never necessary. I'll let WHM's know using Benediction is a waste of time. Just let them die because a group wipe will teach them a lesson and that is more valuable. (sarcasm)

[Jpec07]

You realize this is the equivalent of arguing Benediction should not be in the game because if everyone was doing what they are supposed to then a full heal is never necessary. I'll let WHM's know using Benediction is a waste of time. Just let them die because a group wipe will teach them a lesson and that is more valuable. (sarcasm)

Except not quite.

Benediction is basically idiot-proof. If a WHM uses Benediction, there's no way that anyone can mess up its effect. Once used, it's done, and that's that.

CC requires coordination. It requires mobs to not be taking damage. It requires AoE to be stopped completely, or it is ruined. It requires the group to anticipate its use and count on it. If you AoE sleep and the SMN or MNK doesn't get the memo, you've wasted a GCD

CC moves can be useful, but they require more coordination than you'll typically find in DF groups or the open world at present.

[Red_Wolf]

CC requires coordination. It requires mobs to not be taking damage. It requires AoE to be stopped completely, or it is ruined. It requires the group to anticipate its use and count on it. If you AoE sleep and the SMN or MNK doesn't get the memo, you've wasted a GCD

Does it seriously require more coordination to NOT hit a mob than it does to hit a mob? I mean I get what you're saying. There are times when it's tough like halfway through a fight when mobs are stacked, but that's not how CC is generally used unless the tank or healer dies. In which case you just try anything to live.

Instead, think about how you react during a bad pull. Do you really just say 'screw the tank' and start blasting your AoE's while all the scattered mobs are attacking you and the healer? Or do you wait for the tank to gather them all up before you start attacking again? If the tank grabs the mezzed mob when it was better to leave it away from the pack than that's on him or her. I think DPS can show some restraint for the 2 seconds it takes the tank to recollect themselves.

I get frustrated because this is second nature to anyone that played old school MMOs. Now we assume the general MMO population can't stop pushing buttons for 2 GCDs.

[Whiteroom]

Does it seriously require more coordination to NOT hit a mob than it does to hit a mob?

Yes.



Obviously it does.




Especially when it is a waste of time in most instances to CC, and when the games meta is speedrun everything. You are not playing those old games, though now I understand why you can't give it up, but not admitting how it doesn't actually go with the way the devs have designed the game is willfully ignoring it.

If the tank pulls big, it is to kill everything, not to CC. If they don't want multiple groups pulled they don't pull them. What is the point of pulling two groups, if you are going to sleep one anyway? If the tank doesn't have aggro, it is either because they did it wrong, or the healer when ape early, in which case, they need to learn how to play.

I get frustrated because this is second nature to anyone that played old school MMOs.

You are not playing an old school MMO. Its not that people don't understand CC, it is not useful in this game, at least not enough to be part of the meta. As others have said, it would be nice if it was, but using it just to use it, doesn't make it useful. It just means you are doing the run slower, because you like to play that way, which is fine, but not useful.

[Red_Wolf]

stuff...

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

[Jpec07]

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

Um, no it's not? You're still leveling your tank from what I can see on your profile, but even fully-geared tanks still need to use CDs in lower-level content. Sure, they may be able to get away with less of it, but if you think that's the case, you are seriously overestimating the effectiveness of gear as relates to general mitigation.

His point stands, and I agree with it. It very often does require more coordination to get people to stop what they're doing than it does to just kill things harder. AoE is a big part of many jobs' rotations and abilities. And especially when DoTs are involved (read: most AoE abilities in the game), they are literally incapable of stopping on a dime. Their DoTs will keep going, and will break the CC. And AoE is also not structured in this game to be able to avoid individual enemies. If they're in range, they're going to take damage.

CC is very probably not going to save a tank, much less a group.

[Whiteroom]

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

Serious?

Your argument is based on their being some huge portion of the community in min ilvl gear, who don't know their jobs properly, over pull, and lose aggro, yet will somehow manage to coordinate CC. And do all that in a game where the content is tuned so low that it still doesn't matter.


The game throws gear at you. Any time new dungeons are released, the majority of the people playing them will be 15 or so ilvls above what drops in them anyway. And at low level (leveling)you are on to the next dungeon in about 3 runs anyway.

The devs did not design the dungeons for speed runs, but they are tuned so low that that is where the community sets the meta. So in a way the devs kind of did. They released the content so that it could easily be speed run, and then put the grinds in that made speed runs desiarable.


But as far as our line of discussion pertanining to the OP, it does not, OP is about tanks not using defensive CD, not the merits of CC. That you think top geared people dont need CD is interesting, given how much babying you thing lower geared people need.

Why do you think people who can't hold aggro, in a game this easy, are going to be able to coordinate CC, especially when they are going to have to gain aggro back, and two of the tanks aoe aggro will break the cc anyway? And yes Dots that are applied won't break CC, but almost everything else will, same with the smn that hits bane right after you cast sleep.