Blood Weapon / other DRK suggestions:

[KrenianKandos]

Blood Weapon - Make it usable in Grit - Instead of Restoring MP, it Restores a little bit of HP. Or.. just make it usable in Grit.

Sole Survivor - Add (Cannot be used on enemies unless they are under 15% health, cannot be used on bosses. [after all, if the boss is dead you wouldn't need HP or mana anyways. Its good on Adds/Trash/Fight Mechanic things.])

Dark Dance - Remove Dark Arts Effect and add 5% Damage Reduction base. Evasion is cool but it doesn't really fit his kit. Hes a hulking armored man with a Greatsword.

Scourge - Make it Physical Damage.

Dark Mind - Remove Dark Arts Effect, make it 30% base. Its a defensive cooldown and the Dark Mind macro before it makes it delayed. Which kind of stinks anyways since its for one type of damage.

Living Dead - If nothing happens, heal the Dark Knight for 25% of his life.

Shadow Wall - Decrease cooldown to 120s from 180s.

Dark Passenger - Remove Dark Arts effect; give it 200 potency base and a 6 second blind.

Abyssal Drain - Remove Dark Arts effect and make it heal basely.

Delirium - Reduces MND and cast speed of the target by 10%.


Currently switched to main to Warrior. Don't really see a reason to play a Dark Knight at the moment. Kind of dislike playing a 3.0 Samurai hybrid class. I do kind of like Dark Arts upgrading effects of stuff myself. I thought it was a really cool mechanic. However, it just doesn't work in this game. Its too flingy and works best using on certain abilities over others.

If Dark Arts was a buff you used instead of it just giving one ability the effect and lasted longer it would be actually a really fun mechanic. Like when it started it made multiple abilities go with it and was actually really fun.

You seem to get a pretty bad wrap around here about bemoaning everything and anything so I decided, during my downtime (And I have a LOT of downtime lately) at work, to analyze your recommendations. Because, let's be honest everyone, the forums are here for people to make recommendations about how they see things.



So here's to it:

Blood Weapon - Make it usable in Grit - Instead of Restoring MP, it Restores a little bit of HP. Or.. just make it usable in Grit.

The point of Dark Knight tanking is to stance dance, actually. You're supposed to be able to dance from your Grit stance to without it to increase your damage. It's supposed to be a choice: You get more mana regen if you are out of Grit but only if you know how to handle the increased amount of damage. I have had no issues whatsoever running most of the content I do by disabling Grit and enabling Blood Weapon and getting threat and my healers keeping me alive. Know when to use it and when not to; that's the idea behind a Dark Knight. It's to know when to sacrifice your defense for an all out offensive assault. I love that feel of Dark Knight and I feel like Blood Weapon would just be another cooldown and negate the requirement of watching your mana and being smart about it. Dark Knight is a lot more resource intensive and requires the player to pay attention to that. So removing that aspect would bore me, personally.

Sole Survivor - Add (Cannot be used on enemies unless they are under 15% health, cannot be used on bosses. [after all, if the boss is dead you wouldn't need HP or mana anyways. Its good on Adds/Trash/Fight Mechanic things.])

I feel like your suggestion is more of a fact that you simply have a hard time using Sole Survivor at the right time. To me, I think that's just a fact that you need to learn when to use it and when not to. Why should the game make it simpler for you to manage your cooldowns? Get better and learn how to use your cooldowns at the right time. I've mucked up and had my timer run out because of x reason (choosing the wrong target the dps went, dps switching on me to another target so wasted the cast, not actually managing the cooldown in the timeframe of the enemy to die..). That's my fault. Not the game. The CD is a QoL thing and not absolutely required. It's a dull skill, I will say that.

Dark Dance - Remove Dark Arts Effect and add 5% Damage Reduction base. Evasion is cool but it doesn't really fit his kit. Hes a hulking armored man with a Greatsword.

I can't really complain about this change. Evasion is evasion and I will say that yeah, it doesn't fit the whole idea that this is a slow wielding two handed beast but Dark Arts is a channeling of dark energies to empower a skill so you could easily make it that the tendrils of darkness add shadows to your Dark Dance which increases the evasion because an enemy would target said shadow over you. It works on a lore stance but I will agree it's kinda of a boring trait. I actually have never really used DA on DD and didn't even realize it had a DA effect. Go me. =/

Scourge - Make it Physical Damage.

While I am fine with more damage for my DoTs, is this the same thing for every other class that has a DoT or is the dot based on a magical attack? Just says potency of 100. What's your reasoning, exactly, for this change? You just state this but you don't give reasoning; S-E won't really care about your requests if you don't back it up...

Dark Mind - Remove Dark Arts Effect, make it 30% base. Its a defensive cooldown and the Dark Mind macro before it makes it delayed. Which kind of stinks anyways since its for one type of damage.

This is another case where it's more QoL than the skill, honestly. Most fights in this game follow a script so it's up to you to know when you need to activate DADM and not just DM. The point of Dark Knight is to manage your mana and to make it so that you decide right. That's also why they made it that you only have to focus on Vitality so you only have to mitigate damage that comes into the fights. As a tank, that's about the only role other than positioning. So why would you want to make our job more boring because you rather not think about how to actively think when it is. This is active mitigation, honestly. Use your head and use your skills accordingly.

Living Dead - If nothing happens, heal the Dark Knight for 25% of his life.

Honestly, 25% of a life is still as boring as what Living Dead currently is. At this point, you pretty much need to make a macro and yell "Living Dead use, let me die!" and then watch for Walking Dead and say "Blast me with everything, healing wise!". The whole skill needs a rework because it simply isn't a very nice cooldown for a tank; it relies on you wanting to let yourself die which is completely against the tank ideology. I would look at a rework but I have no idea on what could be done.

Shadow Wall - Decrease cooldown to 120s from 180s.

While it's a long cooldown, you're not giving a reason why to do this. You have enough cooldowns that you don't need to drop your 30% all resist down a cd. Everyone else has this CD on a 3 minute CD. Why should we be different?

Dark Passenger - Remove Dark Arts effect; give it 200 potency base and a 6 second blind.

I disagree with this. I use Dark Passenger as a part of my AoE rotation and this would almost make me always have to use it even in single target rotations (which you should but sometimes depending on mana, I can hold back.) I'm honestly not very keen on this, personally.

Abyssal Drain - Remove Dark Arts effect and make it heal basely.

No? Again, the point is to make you decide when and where to use Dark Arts...starting to see a trend here which I'll address below.

Delirium - Reduces MND and cast speed of the target by 10%.

The idea is to loop into the requirement if we ever don't have a Monk. I'm fine with the current incarnation as it doesn't require me to do that rotation if we ever do have a Monk, and if we don't, it adds a layer of complexity for my rotation as well. You would make Dark Knight required for every content because no other class does this and that makes no sense. You're overpowering a class for no reason.



In conclusion, I have a very strong feeling you just don't like the fact of mixing Dark Arts into anything, and hate the skill Dark Arts, period. I'm not sure if it's laziness on your end because you don't want to decide when to use it or not but to me, Dark Arts adds a layer of complexity that the other tanking classes don't have and it separates the good and the great Dark Knights. So while I can understand your frustration, maybe Dark Knight is simply not your class and you should just stay with Warrior, as it seems you enjoy it a lot more. A final note: Try to add reasons why you think changes are required. Not just say "This is what I think should change.", list everything, and say "my word is gospel, follow it."

[MagiusNecros]

Scourge's 100 potency I believe is physical the DoT itself is magical. Salted Earth blasts an area with magic. The DoT itself is Physical.

Dark Arts is kinda ass in a way because it really doesn't lend itself to a lot more skills. It is still integral to optimum performance.

And I believe only Soul Eater has a Grit effect. Kinda pathetic nothing else does.

I mean let's look at every base job skill we have.

Hard/Spin Slash - Seems simple enough and I have no problems.
Shadowskin - They copypasted Rampart. That's lazy. And no DA effect either to give it a Vengeance effect either. Cuz you know spiky animation.
Scourge - Deliver a physical attack of 100 and a 500 potency DoT. Oh the DoT is magical. No DA effect. Could have made it a DA move that applies max potency immediately but then you already outclass DA SE/CnS.
Unleash - Pretty good. Has no DA effect.
Low Blow - Ogcd stun. 30% chance to reset off a parry. Useless to reset if OT. No DA effect to force it.
Syphon Strike - Pretty good.
Unmend - Ranged attack to start aggro generation. Sometimes makes Unleash free. No DA effect.
Blood Weapon - Pretty good. No DA effect.
Reprisal - Ogcd Storms Path locked behind a parry. Useless if OT. No DA effect to force a proc.
Power Slash - Enmity finisher. DA effect is a 6.5 multiplier over 5.5? Really?
Darkside - Good.
Grit - lol that MP cost. Otherwise it's good. Would like a passive vengeance effect though what with the spiky animation.
Dark Dance - I think it's good and kinda helps if you go without Grit when you increase Evade and Parry. In OT? Mostly useless. Might dodge a raidwide attack though. Maybe.
Blood Price- Good. But no DA effect.
Souleater - Excellent. The only skill with a Grit effect however.
Dark Passenger - I like it. Good for no grit MT for the Blind. If it works. Crits are awesome.
Dark Mind - I think it's okay but needs to be used when you know an attack is magical.
Dark Arts - The DRK's gimmick. If you could apply all enhanced skills over the course of 10 seconds it could be amazing. However like Duality from NIN it's just one thing. And getting recast reduced to 3 seconds soon means it'll remain that way. Steep MP cost.
Shadow Wall - 10% weaker then a PLD's Sentinel. It also has no DA effect.
Delirium - Applies Int down. If you got a Monk kiss your little utility goodbye. No DA effect.
Living Dead - Has good synergy with your healer. But not you. Also no DA effect. If I wanted a DA effect I'd want if the DRk died it inflicted raid wide damage to the enemy up to half of the DRK's max HP. Because kamikaze attacks are pretty metal.
Salted Earth - Pretty good. Although this attack even though it looks like magic is physical. No DA effect. You'd think it give a debuff like Heavy or Slow but nope. A AoE Silence would be cool.
Plunge - Love it. No DA effect. You'd think Parry Procs would reset this like Low Blow but nope.
Abyssal Drain - Oh hey an actual DA effect and during Blood Price it can be wonderful.
Sole Survivor - Good skill if you know something will die in 15 seconds. No DA effect for say a debuff.
Carve and Spit - Two effects. One is a Ogcd Syphon Strike and the other is a DA boosted heavy hitter that still looks like a sissy in front of the warrior over there. 3 fold attack. Only hits once. Good for burst if you have the MP for it. Or go full ham with Blood Price and Weapon.

We went through all of em and only about 7 out of 22 skills benefit from Dark Arts? Only 2 of those from the HW acquired skills. A bit lame if you ask me. Pretty sure Dark Arts could have been applied to many other abilities but oh well. I guess 7 is better compared to the Warrior's 5 Wrath/Abandon stack skills I guess and only needing to pop DA once and not be 5 GCD sequence locked.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

You seem to get a pretty bad wrap around here about bemoaning everything and anything so I decided, during my downtime (And I have a LOT of downtime lately) at work, to analyze your recommendations. Because, let's be honest everyone, the forums are here for people to make recommendations about how they see things.



So here's to it:

Blood Weapon - Make it usable in Grit - Instead of Restoring MP, it Restores a little bit of HP. Or.. just make it usable in Grit.

The point of Dark Knight tanking is to stance dance, actually. You're supposed to be able to dance from your Grit stance to without it to increase your damage. It's supposed to be a choice: You get more mana regen if you are out of Grit but only if you know how to handle the increased amount of damage. I have had no issues whatsoever running most of the content I do by disabling Grit and enabling Blood Weapon and getting threat and my healers keeping me alive. Know when to use it and when not to; that's the idea behind a Dark Knight. It's to know when to sacrifice your defense for an all out offensive assault. I love that feel of Dark Knight and I feel like Blood Weapon would just be another cooldown and negate the requirement of watching your mana and being smart about it. Dark Knight is a lot more resource intensive and requires the player to pay attention to that. So removing that aspect would bore me, personally.

Sole Survivor - Add (Cannot be used on enemies unless they are under 15% health, cannot be used on bosses. [after all, if the boss is dead you wouldn't need HP or mana anyways. Its good on Adds/Trash/Fight Mechanic things.])

I feel like your suggestion is more of a fact that you simply have a hard time using Sole Survivor at the right time. To me, I think that's just a fact that you need to learn when to use it and when not to. Why should the game make it simpler for you to manage your cooldowns? Get better and learn how to use your cooldowns at the right time. I've mucked up and had my timer run out because of x reason (choosing the wrong target the dps went, dps switching on me to another target so wasted the cast, not actually managing the cooldown in the timeframe of the enemy to die..). That's my fault. Not the game. The CD is a QoL thing and not absolutely required. It's a dull skill, I will say that.

Dark Dance - Remove Dark Arts Effect and add 5% Damage Reduction base. Evasion is cool but it doesn't really fit his kit. Hes a hulking armored man with a Greatsword.

I can't really complain about this change. Evasion is evasion and I will say that yeah, it doesn't fit the whole idea that this is a slow wielding two handed beast but Dark Arts is a channeling of dark energies to empower a skill so you could easily make it that the tendrils of darkness add shadows to your Dark Dance which increases the evasion because an enemy would target said shadow over you. It works on a lore stance but I will agree it's kinda of a boring trait. I actually have never really used DA on DD and didn't even realize it had a DA effect. Go me. =/

Scourge - Make it Physical Damage.

While I am fine with more damage for my DoTs, is this the same thing for every other class that has a DoT or is the dot based on a magical attack? Just says potency of 100. What's your reasoning, exactly, for this change? You just state this but you don't give reasoning; S-E won't really care about your requests if you don't back it up...

Dark Mind - Remove Dark Arts Effect, make it 30% base. Its a defensive cooldown and the Dark Mind macro before it makes it delayed. Which kind of stinks anyways since its for one type of damage.

This is another case where it's more QoL than the skill, honestly. Most fights in this game follow a script so it's up to you to know when you need to activate DADM and not just DM. The point of Dark Knight is to manage your mana and to make it so that you decide right. That's also why they made it that you only have to focus on Vitality so you only have to mitigate damage that comes into the fights. As a tank, that's about the only role other than positioning. So why would you want to make our job more boring because you rather not think about how to actively think when it is. This is active mitigation, honestly. Use your head and use your skills accordingly.

Living Dead - If nothing happens, heal the Dark Knight for 25% of his life.

Honestly, 25% of a life is still as boring as what Living Dead currently is. At this point, you pretty much need to make a macro and yell "Living Dead use, let me die!" and then watch for Walking Dead and say "Blast me with everything, healing wise!". The whole skill needs a rework because it simply isn't a very nice cooldown for a tank; it relies on you wanting to let yourself die which is completely against the tank ideology. I would look at a rework but I have no idea on what could be done.

Shadow Wall - Decrease cooldown to 120s from 180s.

While it's a long cooldown, you're not giving a reason why to do this. You have enough cooldowns that you don't need to drop your 30% all resist down a cd. Everyone else has this CD on a 3 minute CD. Why should we be different?

Dark Passenger - Remove Dark Arts effect; give it 200 potency base and a 6 second blind.

I disagree with this. I use Dark Passenger as a part of my AoE rotation and this would almost make me always have to use it even in single target rotations (which you should but sometimes depending on mana, I can hold back.) I'm honestly not very keen on this, personally.

Abyssal Drain - Remove Dark Arts effect and make it heal basely.

No? Again, the point is to make you decide when and where to use Dark Arts...starting to see a trend here which I'll address below.

Delirium - Reduces MND and cast speed of the target by 10%.

The idea is to loop into the requirement if we ever don't have a Monk. I'm fine with the current incarnation as it doesn't require me to do that rotation if we ever do have a Monk, and if we don't, it adds a layer of complexity for my rotation as well. You would make Dark Knight required for every content because no other class does this and that makes no sense. You're overpowering a class for no reason.



In conclusion, I have a very strong feeling you just don't like the fact of mixing Dark Arts into anything, and hate the skill Dark Arts, period. I'm not sure if it's laziness on your end because you don't want to decide when to use it or not but to me, Dark Arts adds a layer of complexity that the other tanking classes don't have and it separates the good and the great Dark Knights. So while I can understand your frustration, maybe Dark Knight is simply not your class and you should just stay with Warrior, as it seems you enjoy it a lot more. A final note: Try to add reasons why you think changes are required. Not just say "This is what I think should change.", list everything, and say "my word is gospel, follow it."

I don't mind using Dark Arts if it enhanced the skill to a significant affect. Like using it in Combos and Carve and Spit for a huge effect. However, having it on almost every single skill and with the way the game is designed, and the way the skill is designed is just not good/or fun. I could change a bit to be honest but meh. I will probably just stick and play Warrior until the class gets looked at or change and continue to just not use Dark Arts on 75% of the skills.

Dark Arts just eats too much Mana to be good or used for everything. If its Mana Cost was cut by 50% and we were able to use Blood Weapon I would feel much differently about all this, but it stands that currently: Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

Until then I will play the "real" stance dancing class. Warrior. =3

Honestly though. If Dark Knight was a DPS class I would not have as much as a problem because I wouldn't have Grit. However until they do some major QoL changes I see DRK going lower and lower then War/PLD.

No other class in the game has so many "penalties" tied to its skills, its actually to me; horribly designed and not fun, especially for a game like this where there is a delay AFTER using a skill regardless if its on GCD or off. Every skill has a 0.52 second GCD.


That is why I am asking for a bunch of QoL improvements. Am I lazy: YES! I am, I am lazy. I hate the fact that the skills will do LITERALLY nothing if you use them at a wrong moment. Especially since your a Tank, the class that has to pay attention to a lot more then the hot bar unlike a DPS class. A Dark Knight has to be 50-100% more skilled then both a Paladin AND Warrior due to everything they have to do.

If Dark Arts was just a buff that enhanced you and did not go away after using a skill I would feel like this all would be quite different. However the fact remains that we have all these penalties.. but.. we are .. worse? Then both the classes? Its silly. Stupid.

Paladin has no gimmick. It also pulls numbers closer to Dark Knight and has way more utility. If Paladin ever gets an AOE I will consider DRK a dead class. However, Dark wins at spamming dungeons and clearing them faster then anyone else due to their AOE.



I mean, why even play a class that has so much gimmick, penalties, and 'skilled' I will use that term in unison with 'freaking annoying' mechanics when another is quite similar to it, has way more utility in a group and does not do much less damage either!

Dark Knight
Grit+Darkside = 0.92

Paladin
Shield Oath = 0.85
Fight or Flight+Shield Oath = 1.13
Over time with Shield Oath+FoF=0.9435

So, even with Darkside now Paladin has more base damage in their Tank Stances. Which is quite a significant difference over long periods especially when you cater in the fact that FoF is activated, so you can use it when you need it, and keep it on cooldown when boss has defensive mechanics. So whilst on a Training Dummy Dark Knight may do more, in real fights because your damage buff is on cooldown and you use it when you need it Paladin can probably do more in that period. Paladin skills also do what they do; they have no penalties or anything attached to them.


And honestly? These could all just be 'my' problems and 'my' nitpicks because i'm just not that good and 99% of the Dark Knights on the forums never have any issue doing any of this and I need to learn to play better. However, in looking at the numbers ... I feel like some things could use some adjusting

[Jhett_Magnum]

Dark Arts Dark Dance

Dodging an attack has a % chance to extend blood weapon duration OR reset its CD.


Dark Arts Dark Passenger

Initial target explodes for 50 potency for each target hit.

Delirium
INT down 10%
30% chance Magic Vulnerability. under Blood Weapon. 10s

Darkside
Potency increases as hp decreases.
( making living dead the most powerful CD! Wow the edge!)

[KrenianKandos]

I don't mind using Dark Arts if it enhanced the skill to a significant affect. Like using it in Combos and Carve and Spit for a huge effect. However, having it on almost every single skill and with the way the game is designed, and the way the skill is designed is just not good/or fun. I could change a bit to be honest but meh. I will probably just stick and play Warrior until the class gets looked at or change and continue to just not use Dark Arts on 75% of the skills.

Don't know about you but I'm finding it quite amusing and rather empowering that I am able to combine Dark Arts to some of my attacks to do more damage or mitigate more damage and still maintain my mana bar. Challenge is in the eye of the beholder. It still comes off to the fact you simply don't feel like doing mana management, which is what the class is all about. It's not like Paladin or Warrior. It never should be; it should be in it's own playstyle. I recall reading that Yoshida wants the Dark Knight class to be the more 'advanced' class for tanking and that you need to think a lot more to effectively be a very good Dark Knight. And that, alone, is a challenge I am more than willing to accept. It just sounds to me, more and more, you simply do not like the class. Period. It's not the class for you, and you're allowed to have that opinion! But to some of us, we actually like the decision making required from Dark Arts. It adds a new spin to a lot of skills. Tell me another tank class that requires you to activate a skill to get an extra effect on your attacks? There is none. Thus the beauty of this class.

Dark Arts just eats too much Mana to be good or used for everything. If its Mana Cost was cut by 50% and we were able to use Blood Weapon I would feel much differently about all this, but it stands that currently: Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

It's a part of mana management. They even stated this when it came out originally that the Dark Knight class was going to be a Heavensward class, that it would be a resource intensive class where every decision you make will impact you and that you need to gauge. You don't NEED to use Dark Arts for everything. You pick and choose, depending on the output of mana that you're getting back from either Blood Pact or Blood Weapon, and activate it accordingly. If not, then you ignore Dark Arts and just do your basic rotation. Really, it's an extra button that allows you to add more 'oomph' to your attacks. Why is this such a problem..? If you don't want to use it, don't use it. But you're hurting yourself in the long run in DPS increase as well as mitigation increase that Dark Arts has for you. At worse, you take around 35% of your mana from your bar by using your real Mana intensive skills. And that's only in situations that you need to (Mostly AoE). Otherwise, Dark Arts is used for either a mitigation cooldown or an extra damaging attack. Your argument makes no sense because if we lost Dark Arts, we wouldn't have much mana decreasing attacks other than our AoE stuff.

Until then I will play the "real" stance dancing class. Warrior. =3

There isn't much change between Dark Knight and Warrior. And Dark Knight is not a stance dancing class. It's meant to be a class where you choose when to go to Grit for threat generation (During trash and the beginning of the fight) and when to stay out of it and blow your DPS rotations.

Honestly though. If Dark Knight was a DPS class I would not have as much as a problem because I wouldn't have Grit. However until they do some major QoL changes I see DRK going lower and lower then War/PLD.

Unfortunately, Square chose it to be a tank which does a pretty sizeable amount of damage. Not as much as Warriors, which is fine, but still quite sizeable if you're able to actually use the tols at your disposal. The QoL you suggested would dumb the class down to boredom and would effectively remove Dark Knight from it's niche.

No other class in the game has so many "penalties" tied to its skills, its actually to me; horribly designed and not fun, especially for a game like this where there is a delay AFTER using a skill regardless if its on GCD or off. Every skill has a 0.52 second GCD.

That's if you want to use Dark Arts every single time it's up, at every single opportunity. Without using Dark Arts, using your numbers alone, you are just 0.02 points behind Paladin. 0.02! You're not supposed to use Dark Arts nor are you using it every single time after every single skill so saying that you always have a 0.52 second GCD is disingenuous to the class.

That is why I am asking for a bunch of QoL improvements. Am I lazy: YES! I am, I am lazy. I hate the fact that the skills will do LITERALLY nothing if you use them at a wrong moment. Especially since your a Tank, the class that has to pay attention to a lot more then the hot bar unlike a DPS class. A Dark Knight has to be 50-100% more skilled then both a Paladin AND Warrior due to everything they have to do.

And we now hit the crux of the matter: You simply don't like how Dark Knight is played. And that's fine. You have your right to not like the playstyle of Dark Knight. But I think SO MANY PEOPLE on here have been trying to tell you that you are one of the few people who think this way because most of us actually ENJOY this playstyle! So you need to stop thinking that your word is gospel and that you know each change would make the class better because everything you suggested would bore the living hell out of me and would turn me into a boring Paladin! I don't WANT that. I like my skill intensive class. I like having to make decisions. Just because YOU are lazy doesn't mean everyone else wants to be lazy just like you so please, stop.

If Dark Arts was just a buff that enhanced you and did not go away after using a skill I would feel like this all would be quite different. However the fact remains that we have all these penalties.. but.. we are .. worse? Then both the classes? Its silly. Stupid.

So you want Dark Arts to be just...a stance? Just like...Grit? So Dark Knight would have...two stances? No. Just..no. That's just pure laziness on your part that you don't want to pay attention to a button you have to press before every enhanced possible skill. Learn to get better with your timing and learn to press a damn button. Simple as that.

Paladin has no gimmick. It also pulls numbers closer to Dark Knight and has way more utility. If Paladin ever gets an AOE I will consider DRK a dead class. However, Dark wins at spamming dungeons and clearing them faster then anyone else due to their AOE.

Paladins have no gimmick? They are the kings of Mitigators. They can mitigate more damage due to their shields and are able to keep a rather stable amount of damage come in for you in a fight. Some healers prefer a steady amount of damage to predict the heals they need to throw out in a fight, especially in an intensive fight where healing can spike here and there. How is that not having a gimmick. Dark Knights and Warriors do not have the mitigation Paladins have, period, because of how they're designed. Warriors are Health sponge with mitigation cooldowns but tend to soak the damage through their health pool. Dark Knights have more mitigators but have less health, but can do more damage than Paladins. They all have gimmicks. The idea that Paladin has no gimmick is baffling.

I mean, why even play a class that has so much gimmick, penalties, and 'skilled' I will use that term in unison with 'freaking annoying' mechanics when another is quite similar to it, has way more utility in a group and does not do much less damage either!

Dark Knight
Grit+Darkside = 0.92

Paladin
Shield Oath = 0.85
Fight or Flight+Shield Oath = 1.13
Over time with Shield Oath+FoF=0.9435

So, even with Darkside now Paladin has more base damage in their Tank Stances. Which is quite a significant difference over long periods especially when you cater in the fact that FoF is activated, so you can use it when you need it, and keep it on cooldown when boss has defensive mechanics. So whilst on a Training Dummy Dark Knight may do more, in real fights because your damage buff is on cooldown and you use it when you need it Paladin can probably do more in that period. Paladin skills also do what they do; they have no penalties or anything attached to them.

This I'm going to quote all together. You calculated a Dark Knight that only does attacks in Grit and Darkside up, without realizing that Dark Arts amplifies their attacks to probably go higher than the point system you added; which means, yeah, more than Paladins. You add a 90 second cooldown for Paladins and put it over time, but do not add Dark Arts' attacks over the same time and assume you still do less damage than Paladins.

You need to review your math. You need to review your entire view of Dark Knights because it's obvious to me, now, you just simply do not like Dark Knights mechanics, plain and simple. It's not your class, which again, is fine. But to go around and say Dark Knights are actually weaker than Warriors and Paladins..?

...You're officially talking out of your rear. And go ahead and tell me otherwise considering my character linked has all three classes at 60 and geared very similarly which means I've tried and tested all three classes in all sorts of environments. =)

No offense, but you haven't even shown me once yet that you even know what in blazes you're talking about in regards to Dark Knight. You throw numbers and situations and yet put the Dark Knight class in a position to fail, when in all cases, if you added all the numbers together, Dark Knight can stand if not excel in multiple scenarios.

Come back again when you are ready to actually discuss rationally instead of an obvious bias about hating Dark Knight. Then people might take you a bit more seriously.

[shao32]

That is why I am asking for a bunch of QoL improvements. Am I lazy: YES! I am, I am lazy. I hate the fact that the skills will do LITERALLY nothing if you use them at a wrong moment. Especially since your a Tank, the class that has to pay attention to a lot more then the hot bar unlike a DPS class. A Dark Knight has to be 50-100% more skilled then both a Paladin AND Warrior due to everything they have to do.

you say it all, poor dps forums the day you touch the monk.
and the real stance dancings class are the healers the warriors only take the same train.

[Chronons]

Snip[/I][/B]

I had a quick question about the numbers and damage in tank stance. I'm getting ShO+FoF =1.105 [(.85x.3)+.85). Also, in a 3 min interval FoF can be put up twice for an total uptime of 40secs (22.22% of the 3 mins). To make my life easier I just treated it as a fourth to get an average in the three mins of .914 [(.85+.85+.85+1.105)/4]. That would put it lower than Darkside - technically even lower than this since I gave FoF+3% uptime. Where am I mathing wrong?

Using your numbers, which I am assuming are right and that mine are not, it should be noted that .92 of DRKs potential dps is still higher .9435 of PLDs. Meaning overall DRK would have more base damage in tanking stance. Idk if the burst of FoF is better/worse than DA SE/CaS even under tank stance.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Stuff

Show me your math then for it then if you say i'm wrong. If you actually studied in school maybe you would see my math for that is actually correct. It is 0.02% (2%) however the fact that you can use it when you need to, say when a monster is vulnerable or has debuffs. There are also times when your not doing mechanics either. So many variables is why the 33% over 30 seconds with a 90 second CD can be better because your using it when you need it. Paladin also has utility he can use between those damage bursts. The fact that he can also switch to Sword Oath and then use FoF then switch to shield oath over the other 60 seconds is also a thing. That is a MAJOR boost to damage.

Also, from what I understand your talking out of your butt. Warrior does so much more damage and a real DPS class does so much more damage then Dark Knight its not even funny.

Trying to talk down someone with no valid point besides: "YOUR WRONG BECAUSE YOUR WRONG AND PROVE YOURSELF HAHA YOUR WRONG BECAUSE YOUR WRONG" is not valid or fun to me. It actually makes me want to report your post for trolling, because that is all your doing. I actually take time to explain what I mean, and you go and derail my post with your nonsense and hate.

I had a quick question about the numbers and damage in tank stance. I'm getting ShO+FoF =1.105 [(.85x.3)+.85). Also, in a 3 min interval FoF can be put up twice for an total uptime of 40secs (22.22% of the 3 mins). To make my life easier I just treated it as a fourth to get an average in the three mins of .914 [(.85+.85+.85+1.105)/4]. That would put it lower than Darkside - technically even lower than this since I gave FoF+3% uptime. Where am I mathing wrong?

Using your numbers, which I am assuming are right and that mine are not, it should be noted that .92 of DRKs potential dps is still higher .9435 of PLDs. Meaning overall DRK would have more base damage in tanking stance. Idk if the burst of FoF is better/worse than DA SE/CaS even under tank stance.

Indeed, the Potential and Potency of attacks are higher. Don't underestimate the opportunity cost of a Paladins attacks though.

How I got the numbers.

33%/3=11%.
100=Base+11=111%
111x0.15(SHO)=16.65
111-16.65=94.35

Remember, when you reduce damage by X%, it happens AFTER all modifiers. That is why Shield Oath burns Grit to the ground. That 5% is actually a lot more then 5%.

The burst is higher, but a Paladin in Sword Oath+FoF focusing on damage with a fast good weapon over 15 seconds deals way more damage then even that. However the burst Potential of Dark Knight can be scary.

However.. don't underestimate Paladins either... Yes, Dark Knight can do high damage moves but they will be OOM unless they are using Blood Weapon and out of Tank Sance.

[MagiusNecros]

DRK is better overall MT. PLD is desired for physical fights or providing raidwide shields.

Warrior is king of OT. Can do MT if desired. All in all always has value in a party. PLD can also offer some stuff as OT. DRK however really wants to be MT all the time. Little OT utility. Can only marginally outparse a OT WAR in MT position.

[Tanathya]

A change I'd do is to Abyssal Drain. I'd make it heal without DA, and have an enmity boost with DA, instead of otherwise. Mainly because, other than being ranged/targetable, it doesn't offer anything that Unleash already doesn't do. Yeah, it's a 20 potency higher move, but it costs more, and I'd rather use Unleash unless I'm using DA Abyssal Drain, which I do, a lot. I mean, I'm not really bothered since I'd use Abyssal Drain the exact same way I already do, but it'd be different from Unleash.