tanks not using cooldowns?

[Jpec07]

OR, it's hard to catch up because the healer hasn't cast a single heal the entire pull because OMGIGOTTADPS. Healers like that are why so many tanks use their cooldowns REACTIVELY.

Tanks are NOT 100% self-sufficient on our cooldowns, we need to be healed. Even with that damage reduction from Vengeance, I'm still going to die if you don't do your job and actually cast heals on me.

Do your job, and make the groups survival your #1 prioirty, and you'll see more tanks use cooldowns so you can DPS rather than use cooldowns because of mechanics.

When something is going to hit me for 70% of my HP, sorry, my cooldowns are being saved for that hit, not your sad DPS.

I think we're all on the same page here:

• Healers who don't drop Cleric Stance to heal when it is clearly needed are not performing adequately in their role.
• A healer's primary role is keeping everyone alive. If they can do that and have time to spare (say, if Regen/Medica II is keeping everyone topped off), they can jump into Cleric Stance and throw out some DoTs, and maybe Holy/Stone II/III, if they've got plenty of room.
• If a healer is DPSing while the group is dying, they are not performing adequately in their jobs.
• All the cooldowns in the world (except maybe Hallowed Ground) are not going to enable a healer to not heal the tank/group.
• Tanks who blow all their CDs during periods of low damage are not performing optimally.
• Big cooldowns should be saved for big damage.

I think the disconnect is in people's assumptions, and the things people aren't saying. I doubt rockint would advocate not using smaller cooldowns at the start of a pull; they just seem disgruntled at the attitude where healers expect to be able to DPS and get upset when they can't. Cooldowns make the healer's job easier, which is really why tanks exist at all (it focuses the incoming damage on one point to give them somewhere to focus their energy), but healers should still be healing primarily (unless they're a Scholar in pre-30 content. Then the fairy does literally everything).

[Red_Wolf]

etc...

The other thing that's often forgotten is something called "crowd control". For whatever reason DPS doesn't feel required to learn or use it. Tanks and Healers will get blamed all night long but often a simple root can fix a lot of these issues.

[Alistaire]

The other thing that's often forgotten is something called "crowd control". For whatever reason DPS doesn't feel required to learn or use it. Tanks and Healers will get blamed all night long but often a simple root can fix a lot of these issues.

The only crowd control that's worth even mentioning on this topic are stuns. The only case I can remotely think of where they're not being used appropriately are ninjas that go in viper stance for trash pulls. Which they shouldn't. But even that's a relatively minor issue. Holy is the best significant crowd control that should be used in dungeons, and even that has a time that it shouldn't be used (blood price). Sleep, bind and non-killshot knockback moves are counterproductive to killing mobs appropriately and should be avoided except in dire circumstances.

[Red_Wolf]

Sleep, bind and non-killshot knockback moves are counterproductive to killing mobs appropriately and should be avoided except in dire circumstances.

I get what you're saying. But you're ignoring the possibility that tanks and healers can struggle. Sleep is not counterproductive when 6 mobs are killing the tank and 5 mobs don't. That's when a DPS should step up and sleep someone instead of just whining and moaning and how bad the tank and healer are.

Yes, in a perfect world CC is never needed. If you group with fc mates or higher-level players, then congrats on ignoring CC. If your tank is the minimum level for the dungeon and is wearing a breastplate 10 levels below the dungeon then you might want to use it instead of lecturing about how your shouldn't need to...

[Alistaire]

I get what you're saying. But you're ignoring the possibility that tanks and healers can struggle. Sleep is not counterproductive when 6 mobs are killing the tank and 5 mobs don't. That's when a DPS should step up and sleep someone instead of just whining and moaning and how bad the tank and healer are.

Yes, in a perfect world CC is never needed. If you group with fc mates or higher-level players, then congrats on ignoring CC. If your tank is the minimum level for the dungeon and is wearing a breastplate 10 levels below the dungeon then you might want to use it instead of lecturing about how your shouldn't need to...

No, when you have to play a dungeon the same way as you would if the tank had dc'd the moral of the story isn't "CC is actually good".

[Red_Wolf]

No, when you have to play a dungeon the same way as you would if the tank had dc'd the moral of the story isn't "CC is actually good".

I'm not sure what the "No" is in response to. You lost me.

I was saying DPS should use CC when in a group with a struggling tank and healer. Do you really disagree with that? It's better to just watch them die? Is that productive or helpful in anyway? Don't you think it will help the tank and healer as they learn?

[Whiteroom]

I'm not sure what the "No" is in response to. You lost me.

I was saying DPS should use CC when in a group with a struggling tank and healer. Do you really disagree with that? It's better to just watch them die? Is that productive or helpful in anyway? Don't you think it will help the tank and healer as they learn?

I get that you want it to be that way, and it would be nice if it were. But it's not. If the tank needs CC on 6 adds, why did they pull that many. Well they probably pulled that many so people could kill them quick. In which case you will be doing AOE damage, which negates sleep anyway. The only time it's useful is when it is combined with something like Holy, where you are able to cleric stance longer because of the stuns, or say, final sting. Even if a pull is accidental it can be gotten through unless everyone is a derp, in which case they need to learn their rolls better, and prioritizing cc is likely beyond them anyway.

[Alistaire]

I'm not sure what the "No" is in response to. You lost me.

I was saying DPS should use CC when in a group with a struggling tank and healer. Do you really disagree with that? It's better to just watch them die? Is that productive or helpful in anyway? Don't you think it will help the tank and healer as they learn?

You're implying CC is good in situations where your tank is so bad they might as well not be there. I'm saying that if your tank is that bad, it's a sign you have a bad tank, not that CC is good.