I just don't get it.

[Deuce]

If you consider that it also happens ingame even and people just straight out ignore you or just reply to you casually with the usual "TAKE A BREAK M8!", it is crazy yea. I could easily turn this into a debate about money/subfee but that would just derail the topic into something far off.

I applaud you for voicing your concerns about the game. Unfortunately, the official forums, particularly the general discussion section is rife with sycophants and people who turn a blind eye to this game's many flaws. While they cite evidence of people who are happy with the game and deny, deny, deny any flaws that people try to bring forward, I can do just the opposite.

Since 3.0 has launched, I can point you to dozens of players whom I know for a fact played from 2.0-3.0 or even 1.0-3.0 have quit this game for these very reasons listed in this thread. Is it anecdotal? Sure, but when I can personally point to dozens, not one, not two, but dozens of players that quit who had been subscribed every month from 2.0-3.0 there is a problem. When I am in multiple linkshells whose activity has been decimated since 3.0 launch there is an issue. If my own FC and the few linkshells I am in that are still active have become revolving doors of players quitting and newer people joining there is something wrong. This growing dissatisfaction is unprecedented behavior in the history of this game since 2.0 launch.

As of patch 3.25 many of these players have yet to come back and even refuse to come back unless SE starts taking a different approach to endgame, which will most likely never come. Several of them are hoping that 4.0 will make those changes. Sadly, I'm not going to hold my breath. This first expansion has already demonstrated the limited scope (3.0 Relic) and poor decision making (Lord of Verminion) of the development team, as well as provided us with plenty of examples of their desire to continue with tired methods, 2 linear hard mode dungeons every patch, etc.

Regrettably, I'm not sure at what point philosophies changed between 1.17+ and 2.0 to create this situation where SE felt the need to cater to the lowest common denominator. Undeniably a desire to increase subscriptions, which is an admirable goal. Unfortunately, to say that nothing of value was lost in this endeavor and that it is not having a negative impact on the game is living in a place of denial. Players have become tired of a lot of content that is admittedly from a gameplay standpoint lacking in creativity, an accusation I do not make lightly. The most inspiring content in 3.0 that we have received is probably Ravana EX, Thordan EX, Sephirot EX, and Alexander Savage as well as Diadem's concept, which in my view was poorly executed. Much of this content is only played by a fraction of the playerbase when it's new. We also rarely see these gameplay mechanics added to new dungeons either, which is a shame.

Square Enix and Yoshida may choose to continue down this road and that is their choice. However, as a consumer looking from the outside I have to say that the longer these philosophies continue the fountain of new and naive players will begin to run dry. The game will be healthy for many years to come, but it is hard not to see that there is a lot of potential for this game to go from being a good MMO to being great. I just hope that a new "WoW" doesn't come out in the next two years otherwise SE may have the rug swept out from underneath them.

Lastly, if you want to look for something more concrete as evidence that this game is bleeding subscribers at an alarming rate, then you have to look no further than increased occurrences of free login campaigns, particularly since the launch of 3.0. These login campaigns are likely a direct result of dropping subscriptions. It is a common tactic used by businesses in an attempt to bring back old customers. The problem is that if everything remains static there is a slim chance that they decide to become a customer again.

[Jetstream_Fox]

Stopped reading at "Diablo 2" since thats not even an MMO

Really cause last time I checked it had similarities that many mmos have. The two that come to mind is player to player trading and the fact the game had a server wide chat room for putting together farms, loot and special crafts. Diablo is a hybrid dungeon crawler mmo which is almost what XIV is, take away everyone sitting around Idyllshire and you're basically playing Diablo.

[Rinuko]

wall of text... tldr anyone?

[Gardes]

The mmo division revenue is increasing though. Yet they never show separate numbers and the increase is pretty small for a company with 2 MMOs based on their biggest ips. I came to check 3.2 and compared to 2.2 it's tumbleweed city. On a top 5 legacy server. I'm inclined to believe that dqx is carrying the group.

[Yukiko]

To put it simple, most MMOGs having a mixed progress including some vertical and some horizontal progress (some even mixed a bit sandbox content in).
Its rare to see a MMOG rely solely on vertical progress and thats one of ffxiv biggest mistakes!
While it is lore wise understandable, it will harm the game on the longer run... do you expect new players to play through years of content just to catch up?

[Keramory]

The real irony for me, personally... Is that when 1.0 came out, I thought it was beyond absolute garbage. Now after the same thing over and over, I'm missing a lot of aspects from it. Anything at this point. I'll go back to the ffxi unholy traveling and grinding. The camping nm's against other parties. The average monster kicking my butt but I'm at the same level. ANYTHING but another tome or endgame content that simply has a boss with mechanics and that's it.

[karateorangutang]

The real irony for me, personally... Is that when 1.0 came out, I thought it was beyond absolute garbage. Now after the same thing over and over, I'm missing a lot of aspects from it. Anything at this point. I'll go back to the ffxi unholy traveling and grinding. The camping nm's against other parties. The average monster kicking my butt but I'm at the same level. ANYTHING but another tome or endgame content that simply has a boss with mechanics and that's it.

This is the huge divide between players though. The unholy travel and grinding is what made XI such a "hardcore" game. Now, back in the early 2000's I was very appreciative of that game. You worked and grinded hard for anything you wanted. The problem now is that MMO's have changed, and they've had to change. That type of game that requires huge amounts of grinding and large team play would have a much harder time surviving now. Mobile gaming, games that have easier difficulties, and overall shorter games are more wanted now. Our society has changed to one of greater instant satisfaction and game developers have to be able to roll with the punches.

With all that said, if this would somehow turn into the grindfest that was FFXI, (which I have fond memories of to this day) then I would buy into another game and that would mean another company as well. Square cannot change this model at this point, because to do so would mean the loss of players.

The large difference is that we have a player base that this game is their main form of entertainment. We also have a player base that this is a secondary or even tertiary (myself) form of entertainment. It is impossible to please both groups in a single game.

That being said, there are alot more private developers now that are willing to make these types of games out of sheer nostalgia. Maybe players like yourself could get together and help fund one of these?

[Jetstream_Fox]

Snip

We haven't changed, the people who make games have changed. There are still tons of games that aren't "instant gratification" games, many hack and slash and standalone rpgs like Fallout still require you to work and progress yourself. Mainly the FPS genre is the main culprit of being subjected to instant gratification because of how easy it is to lock down that market. People in marketing want people to buy those games so they make them look easy and fun to play with their friends, selling you on a product that is less quality then a game that requires you to not just click/push a button and win.

This is why the MMO market has never really expanded and has more or less been on a merge with mainstay games, why waste hours of getting that one piece of gear, when I can grab 5 new pieces of gear immediately in The Division? Why waste a month trying to clear 4 raid bosses, when I can clear 2 other games in that time frame? Developers don't care about things such as skill and ingenuity, if they have a model that works they stick with it as long as it makes them money.

Look at Call of Duty, say Modern Warfare was a mmo and World at War, Black Ops and Ghosts were patches like we get on XIV. They didn't do much in those games from what I heard, just a bunch of reskins, bad multiplayer tuning and a sloppy story, yet they sold millions. XIV follows this exact same format and you're correct by saying if they changed the way they do things they lose money.

The game is on a treadmill, eventually the motor will burn out and it become to costly to fix and it will die, but that doesn't mean SE should continue the same pattern until it dies.

[Waliel]

So the core of the problem is that you know when new stuff is coming? That's a new one. I personally find that better than not knowing when and how devs decide to patch their game. Or is it about how this game is vertical and not horizontal?

Really cause last time I checked it had similarities that many mmos have. The two that come to mind is player to player trading and the fact the game had a server wide chat room for putting together farms, loot and special crafts. Diablo is a hybrid dungeon crawler mmo which is almost what XIV is, take away everyone sitting around Idyllshire and you're basically playing Diablo.

FFXIV is not an MMO as it lacks a global public chat channel. Technically you could say that Warcraft 3 is an MMO, because it has the same battle.net lobby system and you can trade resources between players in-game. There's nothing massive about Diablo, and I also find it really hard to call it a dungeon crawler.

The unholy travel and grinding is what made XI such a "hardcore" game. Now, back in the early 2000's I was very appreciative of that game. You worked and grinded hard for anything you wanted.

I find it quite interesting that I don't mind grinding in a single player RPGs, but absolutely loathe it in MMOs.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Yet even fallout is tame by all the standards you mention. Additionally, it can be done in your own time. MMO's are not done on your time, updates come and if you want to keep up with your group then your forced to keep pace with their progression.

I don't know how to say it, but games that are more hardcore are generally labelled as such and sold in that light. Dark Souls and Bloodborne are good examples of this.

Even FPS games have gotten easier over time, with regenerating health and shields. Games are easier and faster then ever before. If your not seeing that then go back and play some old games and see how amazingly frustrating they can be.

Honestly, who is the say they shouldn't continue. Games are profitability treadmills, and I have a hard time believing otherwise. We pay them money and they provide a service, the most efficient way possible from wages to equipment costs, to the customer. Gamers are such an entitled bunch really. We expect a company to bend over backwards to make a product that will please us, even at the cost of efficiency on their part. That is simply not realistic.

I find it quite interesting that I don't mind grinding in a single player RPGs, but absolutely loathe it in MMOs.

I find it to be the same thing for me. It's because there is no time limit to do those things in a single player RPG. With an MMO there is a time limit for you to keep pace with your fellows and that pressure can make the game not as fun sometimes. The trade off is that you get to talk to real people while you play.