Dark Knight: Still Searching for Your True Identity

[Shurrikhan]

I don't see the problem with Unmend having a provoke effect PROVIDED THAT GLADIATOR was NOT a CROSS CLASS. It's a "What if" idea.

In A5s there's an add that always critical hits, and it's good to know that Raw Intuition won't work against it.

It's not an issue of parity so much as relative strength of tanks across the board. As it's been, a poorly timed Provoke can kill the other tank or wipe the whole party by being on CD when needed next. Unleash wouldn't have that limitation, since it has no CD. If it were to have an internal cooldown on that effect alone, it would also need a way not to use that effect until necessary, or else you'd be locked out from using Unmend at all within a CD of the tank swap. Dark Arts could do that, but then you'd be paying 2k mana, a GCD, and a combo, with no CD, for an effect PLD pays only a 40s oGCD for.

Additionally, how would WAR cover this need? If Provoke is no longer cross-class, how are they going to do their instant swaps?
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I'm actually not certain Block always precedes Parry? I'd heard that they're ordered in %mitigation. I'd have to Shelltron test... a lot... at some point. But yeah, it is definitely Crit vs. Hit first, and then the Hit may be dodged, blocked, or parried. Pop Awareness first, and Raw Intuition should work on auto-crit mobs again. Alternatively, (just theoretical, as there is no precedent or current situation for it) if you were tanking two mobs who you couldn't face simultaneously (somehow, idk, both huge maybe, with a smaller attack range than hitbox) and the other hit harder than the auto-crit one, you could just face away from the auto-crit attacker for whom there is no defensive merit to face anyways, and just parry everything from the other... Strange, yet sound, if Awareness weren't available.

[Chronons]

This just blew my mind just now. Why isn't this a thing.
I think the cross classes should be LNC/MRD.
On a side note. Really good ideas here, but would these changes be a 4.0 thing or a patch thing?

Thanks for the kind words. I think PLD/LNC works itself out better considering the two "mandatory" cross class skills that come from PLD. Provoke and Conv are far and away better than Foresight I think. Plus I a change to PLD/LNC doesn't require a ton of reworking for SE. No need to change current skills or add new effects. The real question, I think, is whether or not the gains I mentioned make up for the further diminishing of our already small pool of our physical mitigation tools. I tend to think they do.

[Chronons]

Why not just buff Dark Dance in the first place, rather than having a second, near-identical, 200% effect at 150% cooldown CD?

I think because it gives you greater control of when you want to proc a Reprisal. Which is something a lot of people seem to dislike about the way Reprisal works at the moment. You would essentially be able to apply the KF on top of every other DD due to the way the recast times line up or hold onto it for when you want that mitigation. Either way theres still an element of chance, but you would have greater control.

[Jhett_Magnum]

It's not an issue of parity so much as relative strength of tanks across the board.

Additionally, how would WAR cover this need? If Provoke is no longer cross-class, how are they going to do their instant swaps?

Well unmend could be an oGCD or something. Or it could be made to not interrupt combos.
It's safe to say cross skills aren't changing at all. This thread was about finding the identity of DRK, and I felt that LNC/MRD would better fit it based on an earlier post.

That being said this IS a DRK thread, and my apologies if I came across the wrong way, but I was talking about if DRK did not have GLA cross skills. Warrior is fine how it is.

[Shurrikhan]

Well unmend could be an oGCD or something. Or it could be made to not interrupt combos.
It's safe to say cross skills aren't changing at all. This thread was about finding the identity of DRK, and I felt that LNC/MRD would better fit it based on an earlier post.

That being said this IS a DRK thread, and my apologies if I came across the wrong way, but I was talking about if DRK did not have GLA cross skills. Warrior is fine how it is.

My mistake / idiocy. I read it as "not a cross-class skill (in general)" even though you were quite clear that you meant only that DRK wouldn't have access. My only real point is that you need to be careful when trading out toolkit parts. With those Unmend changes for instance, an oGCD would be the strongest dps increase in the game at present (at 323 mp every GCD for +120 potency), especially when paired with the lack of combo-break, which already makes it more powerful than Shield Lob or Tomahawk.

[Sapphidia]

The game tends to have two defined type of crossclass choice - Thematic and Rolebased. Bard originally used to have Conjuror as one of its cross classes for thematic purposes, but people complained it didn't do enough damage and they swapped it to the much more boring Pugilist/Lancer.

Paladin has that issue. Conjuror is very much a staple attachment of the class in the series, the concept of wielding white magic, but in practise most of the options are pretty pointless. Stoneskin is really the only thing of worth from the choices for them and even that's incredibly niche. Marauder? Sure. Generic tanky/plate class that gives reasonably okay tanky utility stuff, but I think we all realise Paladin would be better off with something like Lancer, Pugilist or even Rogue instead of Conjuror (heck, Rogue would be awesome as they'd get Shadeshift and a weak AOE in deathblossom, plus group utility in Goad, and thematically they could always use daggers before the ninja patch anyway... but I digress).

DRK has been given Gladiator and Marauder and to me it feels like a 50/50 thematic/utility choice. Gladiator HAS to be taken by tanks for Provoke but DRK has always been seen as the flip side of a paladin coin really... so it also feels thematic to have them available. Marauder is just the "heavy plate dude" spec. Lancer would clearly be of use to DRK and the idea of Blood for Blood on a tank class as a strategically used DPS cooldown would be fantastic and rather unique to DRK (and suit its higher skillcap). It would give them a bit more identity.

Lancer would also give them Feint - i really am curious as to why none of the actual tank classes has decent access to a Slow (though yes, a lot of bosses are immune). Haymaker doesnt really count given evasion requirements - Feint would be perfect on DRK as the class does have that feel of debuffing and draining. If not in pve then in PVP having Feint available would give them much needed utility, as currently Feint is super strong in PVP but DRKs are just flat out inferior to PLD and WAR for the tank spot. It also boggles the mind that Keen Flurry, a parry cooldown, isnt available to any tank. Surely it should be available for the one tank that actually benefits from Parry? And I think we all know how nice Invigorate is.

Just having the regular GLD/MRD attached to them homogenises them a little too much. It's clear they started with baseline PLD/WAR abilities and just tweaked them a little for DRK and tried to weave in the dark arts thing later, but the class feels scrappy. It also suffers from self-obsolescence. Early DRK has Unmend and Unleash as being massively class defining magic abilities with a feel that makes them really stand out amongst the tanks... then you get Abyssal Drain and both become rarely used niche abilities.

If DRK is supposed to be the "battlemage" tank it needs far more magic damage in its kit. It needs Unmend to be used as part of its rotation (free procs or guaranteed crit procs after another skill crits maybe? Something like that?). It needs most of its wishy-washy skills that deal physical damage converted to Magic. It needs to feel like the class you want tanking when you have a bard and a double caster comp so Foes Requiem does more than just boost one dpser. It needs cross classes that make it stand out in its role rather than continually trying to be homogenised to be "PLD with different animations".

I feel the MMO mindset of things being Fair is what's killing DRK, and to a similar extent AST. A new class comes along and if they excel too much at something then the older classes get angsty. If it can't do something as well as the older classes then peopel complain. There's no element of -risk- with the new heavensward jobs. They were mostly cut and pasted versions of current jobs with a few minor tweaks and some fiddlier mechanics added to make them seem different, but in practise their niches are so close to existing classes that they don't really serve a purpose. SE need to take more risks. Make DRK a class that does almost 100% Magic damage in melee. Let them be a tank that takes Lancer and if people press Blood for Blood before a tankbuster that's their problem.

[Sarcatica]

Too long

There are a lot of things to talk about if it goes that direction. There will be metas that cater to certain compositions, i.e. Heavy magic comp, Full physical comp. That leads to the most troublesome problem in the game, which is how purchasable (both tomes/gil) gear are locked to each job. It's no longer an issue for tanks/healers alike, but it poses a lot of challenges how SE will want to distribute in-game currencies for DPS-ers since there WILL usually be the 1 most preferred meta, which easily leads to unbalanced gameplay. There are a lot more things to talk about like how fast you can maximize DPS from all the changes that make each job unique or how each job interact different with the others but to me it seems quite clear that SE wants a "fair" play where any job can be used to clear the hardest raid, no matter what.

[Yuni_Queen]

Lancer would clearly be of use to DRK and the idea of Blood for Blood on a tank class [...]

Nope. One thing- tanks will never get HP manipulation skills like B4B or Convert (BLM skill)
Simply put, you are trolling healers. Not o mention situation: "Convert used, cure II pl0x" ...Oops. Dead. That was bad timing. OT please voke it.

Of course, you can say: "Then use it when the timing is good"
Tell that to sprouts/trolls/chat-blinded sons of Leroy Jerkins who knows better how to play their class.

Don't get me wrong. i like the idea. i would love to see Dark Arts eating HP, if you have run out of MP, or Passenger eating up HP. But nay, those are just our dreams.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Nope. One thing- tanks will never get HP manipulation skills like B4B or Convert (BLM skill)
Simply put, you are trolling healers. Not o mention situation: "Convert used, cure II pl0x" ...Oops. Dead. That was bad timing. OT please voke it.

Of course, you can say: "Then use it when the timing is good"
Tell that to sprouts/trolls/chat-blinded sons of Leroy Jerkins who knows better how to play their class.

Don't get me wrong. i like the idea. i would love to see Dark Arts eating HP, if you have run out of MP, or Passenger eating up HP. But nay, those are just our dreams.

Except for the fact that Dark Knight's have Living Dead, and when they have that up they want to die.

[Greven]

Adding a slashing debuff to something like nonDA PS combo would be just perfect and it's so simple Devs should do it now.

On more complex notes I'd like to see a party utility that is more unique to DRK and here an idea: Sole Survivor + DA. You can place it on a party member and that player MP consuming skill will draw from the DRK MP pool instead of his own. This wouldn't be original only but synergies with Walking Dead, Blood Price and other skill, not to say could be used to push some caster DPS in case of need.