New Lore Gameplay!

[CyrilLucifer]

Me, Moose Sensei, and Enkidu Senpai have that covered. Lol

I don't know, even Moose is starting to see the light of Balance.

[Morningstar1337]

I don't know, even Moose is starting to see the light of Balance.

Come over the Dark Side, we have cookies! Oh and esoteric information of life, The universe, and everything that Hydealyn is tight lipped about

[Anonymoose]

I don't know, even Moose is starting to see the light of Balance.

I believe my sentiment was, "Don't you make a fool outta me, Hydaelyn," lol.

I'm standing my ground as being on "Team Hydaelyn", but I sense something amiss in the aether, so to speak. While most people are still rallying behind black and white theories, I feel the tingling presence of the gray, and it does give me pause. But I've yet to see anyone really rallying behind that specific interpretation, either. Lemme lay it out. (This is as close to a prediction theory as I'll be getting for 3.2, so if you want to quote/grade me on any of them, this'll probably be it until 3.3, lol. We'll copy and paste it as needed.)

Taken at face value, this patch seems to actually support that the Ascian endgame is terribad for us (mortal children of Hydaelyn).

Before there was life, in the depths of the aetherial sea, Light and Dark did once dwell as one.

Before all life, the planet was manifest by two forces - Zodiark of the Darkness, and Hydaelyn of the Light.

But the Darkness coveted power, and the balance was broken. Thus was I forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens, to forever remain apart. A moon bound.

Allegation: Zodiark was too greedy, increasing His power over Hydaelyn and threatening the balance. In order to prevent Him from destroying Her, She literally split their soul in twain and banished Him to the sky.

In sundering the star did we cry out, and the barriers 'twixt planes chance to falter.

This action was so severe that the dimensional boundary was sundered.

Across ten and three were we then divided. Reflections of the Source, each possessed of a shard.

Note that word: "reflection". Not copies, but mirror images. So this world, the original world, was broken into Planet and Moon. However, the cracking dimensional boundary caused 13 cosmological enantiomers to fan outwards from it, trapping shards of Light and Darkness's power beyond our realm.

Zodiark longeth to be made whole. For His restoration, for His resurrection, His servants labor without cease.

The Ascians, considered the "apostles" of Zodiark, labor to see the shards of Darkness united, which will see Him restored to being - the Second Coming.

They seek to tear down the barriers which surround the Source.

There is a boundary which separates our world (the original) from each of the mirrored worlds. Because this is where the dimensions cracked, the boundaries must be undone from this side, as well.

Thus do they rejoice in their Ardor─in your calamities─for each marks a Rejoining.

Look at that - all three English terms in the same sentence, and implying that the sentence which came before defines them. Let's bring in the other languages, too. Ardor. Calamity. Rejoining. Spirit Disaster. Dimension Deletion. Nova.

This event is the successful destruction, from our side of the veil, of a boundary to another world - effectively destroying that world and merging its shards back downwards through the fan.

Seven times have they succeeded. Seven times hath the Darkness grown stronger. Seven times have I failed.

When Louisoix "half" prevented the seventh Calamity, he prevented the society-collapsing disaster that usually accompanies a Rejoining. But he did not prevent the destruction of a world barrier, or the recollection of its shard, and thus was Zodiark empowered.

So where does that leave us?

Seven worlds have been destroyed, and Hydaelyn is begging us to thwart the Ascian agenda and prevent the destruction of the rest. Why? Because, as far as She's told us, the merged powers of Darkness will resurrect both Him and the imbalance of power that He had accumulated - meaning that He can destroy Her.

The tinglings of "gray panic" enter here. Nabriales flat out called on the void to return existence to "perfect darkness". Elidibus claims he just wants to put things back on "the right track". At first glance, that now seems possible, doesn't it? Maybe when Elidibus claimed he was different than his bretheren, what he meant was that he doesn't want void to eat everything, he just wants to break down the boundaries to the mirrored worlds and heal the dimensional barrier - reunite everything into one world again. Hunky dory right? The true world, as it was meant to be, in perfect harmony.

How can I still be on Team Hydaelyn!? ... EXCEPT

One, this all hinges on whether Zodiark would not immediately use His accumulated and restored imbalance of power to absolutely destroy Hydaelyn. And why would He show restraint? Read the New Years poem. He loathes Her. Even Lahabrea says that as soon as Zodiark rises again, She's toast. So much for balance.

And two, let's say Zodiark does agree to play nice and give back His stolen power. Where does that leave us? You know, the mortals that were created way later. The ones that have been living pretty much just fine on this halved cosmos (aside from when Zodiark's minions come breaking down our walls). The ones that probably depend on things that come with having a moon. Like tides. And a stable axis of rotation. Do we get to keep that junk? Does He suffer our existence? Not of the last 10,000 years are any hint. But Elidibus must have faith in Him to act as His Emissary to our kind. Maybe we'd be okay. Maybe Zodiark would compromise in a truly balanced world.

Mayhap I was indelicate... 'Tis a mercy She shields Her children from His grace with such resolve. Was it also by Her hand that you survived the Ardor, I wonder?

I figured you'd be dead by now. How downright kooky!

But there's the "gray panic" again! What if that's a hint that Hydaelyn will protect our existence when Zodiark returns!?
Everything could turn out okay!

Her influence wanes, and Her strength shall soon be spent. These lands, these people, this world─all shall soon change. As it was, so shall it be again. As it should always have been.

Say goodbye to everything you know. It's for the best.

Oh.

So, yes. Elidibus makes my resolve waver a bit. There's actually a pretty wide open door for Hydaelyn to be lost, and Zodiark to be lost and some-the-hells-how we retain something of the world we spent the whole game fighting for. But it's not so much that I can uproot my faith in the Crystal, just yet. She's done right by me so far. That and I maintain that the story is way more interesting if Elidibus is paving our road to the Seventh Hell with the illusion of best intentions. They do keep calling Zodiark the One True God. That's certainly not very reassuring.

...

Don't you make a fool outta me, Hydaelyn.

[Fenral]

He clearly wants to turn the lore debates here into a professional e-sport. I can see it now - Cyril representing the Ascians, Fenral representing G'raha Tiahumanity's right to choose their own future and myself representing Garlemald.

Fixed. :P

When Louisoix "half" prevented the seventh Calamity, he prevented the society-collapsing disaster that usually accompanies a Rejoining. But he did not prevent the destruction of a world barrier, or the recollection of its shard, and thus was Zodiark empowered.

Honestly, I think this is the most important part of what she talked about. It has the potential to mean that the Ascians' objectives can be accomplished without calamitous loss of life on our side. Assuming we can find a reason to assist them, as Eldibus thinks we can, we may be able to get out of this without dropping any more moons on anyone.

These lands, these people, this world─all shall soon change. As it was, so shall it be again. As it should always have been.

Say goodbye to everything you know. It's for the best.

Change is also a part of life and nothing to be feared on its own. It really comes down to what that change is. If it has something to do with restoring some lost part of humanity Hydaelyn stripped away for fear of the darkness, well... I'm guessing the Echo is related, but that's as far as I've made it.


But back to the real topic...

I'll go ADC in bot lane with Cilia as support. Cyril go mid, Theodric go top. Kaiser-Ace, can you jungle?

[CyrilLucifer]

We've so little to go off. I've repeated a lot of my thoughts before and this is basically calling for another 20 page argument that I'm not sure I want to indulge in, but sure.

There's actually a pretty wide open door for Hydaelyn to be lost and Zodiark to be lost

I'm of the quoted belief; we're on the path that will destroy both Hydaelyn and Zodiark unless something changes. Just continuing to play this game of destroy the Ascian isn't going to solve the tiny, itty-bitty problem that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were split into instability the first place.

Change needs to come, somehow. The root of the problem needs to be fixed and I don't believe destroying Zodiark is going to make all of our problems go away.

In regards to your Elidibus bit, I wouldn't be against us making a mistake on the larger scale, but I still say the story is more interesting if Hydaelyn did in Her best intentions, like Altana in XI when creating the new world with a future She favored, leading to all of existence being unbalanced.

Honestly, I think this is the most important part of what she talked about. It has the potential to mean that the Ascians' objectives can be accomplished without calamitous loss of life on our side. Assuming we can find a reason to assist them, as Eldibus thinks we can, we may be able to get out of this without dropping any more moons on anyone.

I absolutely agree. If SE will go that path, well, it's just left to be seen.

But back to the real topic...

I'll go ADC in bot lane with Cilia as support. Cyril go mid, Theodric go top. Kaiser-Ace, can you jungle?

On it.

[Anonymoose]

[Louisoix's restoration of the realm] has the potential to mean that the Ascians' objectives can be accomplished without calamitous loss of life on our side.

I absolutely agree.

Does it, though?

People turned out to be wrong in assuming that Louisoix half-prevented anything; that's just how it looked after the fact. The reality was exactly what the Ascians always do and claim must be done: absolute, unbound chaos. And it was even the same MO they've been using for ages: primals at war.

Phoenix and Bahamut tore each other, and Eorzea, apart. The fact that Phoenix just happened to rebirth the realm is kind of incidental. And it didn't bring anyone back from the dead, either. We lost a lot of people. Society just didn't collapse into a barren landscape, for once. Is there any way to use that knowledge to our benefit?

I can come up with one kind-of workable plan, so far. [1] Trust Elidibus. Disregard Hydaelyn's last wishes through the Voice of the Mother; assume she's wrong. [2] Grab Tupsimati and let people know we're gonna need some prayers. [3] Make Elidibus promise that he'll tear the world just enough of a new one to initiate a Rejoining and that none of the acolytes in black will pull any funny business. [4] Chaos hits. Primalize someone to fix it. [5] Hope that it was worth it and not too many people died and that when Zodiark returns, the change makes it look like we maintained everything we fought for.

Sounds risky, though.

[Fenral]

Does it, though? People turned out to be wrong in assuming that Louisoix half-prevented anything; that's just how it looked after the fact. The reality was exactly what the Ascians always do and claim must be done: absolute, unbound chaos.

We've been known to claim a lot of things "must" be done on our end, and Matoya just laughed at us. I think it's less a matter of "it must be done like __ because the universe is built that way" and closer to "we must do it like __ because the alternatives we've explored are all riskier on our end." We have to look past the means used and into what exactly is required to happen on a cosmological scale. It's not like atomic bombs can only be detonated on civilian populations, the same exact explosion happens whether you drop it on a city or out in a cordoned-off and unpopulated patch of desert.

[Anonymoose]

It's not like atomic bombs can only be detonated on civilian populations, the same exact explosion happens whether you drop it on a city or out in a cordoned-off and unpopulated patch of desert.

Used as a metaphor for what's going on in FFXIV, I wholly agree with you. And that's giving me a bit of the "gray panic". However, if an extradimensional entity aligned with "The Devil" tried to convince me that it was in my best interest to nuke a bunch of unpopulated areas... I'd probably still have some questions. And it might not help my confidence if his answers were super vague. Or that the last time his friends got involved, was like, Hitler.

But I'm not saying he's definitely wrong.

I just see the bandwagon stopped outside my house and... I think I need a minute, lol.

[Fenral]

Used as a metaphor for what's going on in FFXIV, I wholly agree with you. And that's giving me a bit of the "gray panic". However, if an extradimensional entity aligned with "The Devil" tried to convince me that it was in my best interest to nuke a bunch of unpopulated areas... I'd probably still have some questions. And it might not help my confidence if his answers were super vague. Or that the last time his friends got involved, was like, Hiter. And Nero before that. But he might be still right. That's all I mean to imply, lol.

I'd like to think he means well in wanting us to figure things out for ourselves before he gets too expodumpy. If we can get a neutral third party (*cough*Midgardsormr*cough*) to explain the workings of the universe, and then hear how Eldibus's version lines up, that would actually be the best way to get us to trust him. But a lot needs to happen to get us there.

[Rhodkr]

Interesting discussion going on! I'll admit in the Hydaelyn vs Zodiarc side of things, I've pretty much remained neutral. Not that I see the need for either mind you, I'm more weary of both. Hydaelyn has protected us and all, but then goes and does what she did in 3.2. Zodiarcs thing cuased the deaths of hundereds of thousands if not millions of people throughout time. We know Zodiarcs wiling to sacrifice people, if Hydaelyn is willing to as well?
To quote futrama: 'I have no strong feeling one why or the other.'