tanks not using cooldowns?

[Aaliyahrose]

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different. If you can't see why, you're a bad tank. Keeping cooldowns up with my usual healer, though, is different. Parry cooldowns can also stack with avoidance. At 10% HP, any self heals are WAY more important than they are at 90%.

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

No...CDs should be used to allow for the healer to not have to spam Cure II and save their mana healing you. Not to blow them at 10%HP. Because you will most likely die even if the healer isn't in cleric stance. It's happened to me before and I have learned from it...you should too after so many deaths that you have had.

[rockint]

No...CDs should be used to allow for the healer to not have to spam Cure II and save their mana healing you.

Yes, WHEN YOU KNOW 100% THAT YOUR HEALER WILL HEAL YOU WHEN NEEDED. When I get hit by a tank buster, and 1 healer is healing a dps, the off-tank isn't taunting, and the other healer is DPSing, I'm sure using those cooldowns at 90% during low damage so the healer could get some extra DPS in is going to do wonders for me when I'm a hit from being killed. So I die and we wipe, but at least I used up my self-heals and other cooldowns while I was at almost full HP because healer DPS.

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

Iou want pug tanks using cooldowns more liberally, stop giving reasons to save them. When I drop to 10% HP and have no cooldowns to use because they're all on cooldown because you just had to do more damage, guess what, we wipe.

[Alistaire]

Yes, WHEN YOU KNOW 100% THAT YOUR HEALER WILL HEAL YOU WHEN NEEDED. When I get hit by a tank buster, and 1 healer is healing a dps, the off-tank isn't taunting, and the other healer is DPSing, I'm sure using those cooldowns at 90% during low damage so the healer could get some extra DPS in is going to do wonders for me when I'm a hit from being killed. So I die and we wipe, but at least I used up my self-heals and other cooldowns while I was at almost full HP because healer DPS.

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

Iou want pug tanks using cooldowns more liberally, stop giving reasons to save them. When I drop to 10% HP and have no cooldowns to use because they're all on cooldown because you just had to do more damage, guess what, we wipe.

...and nothing of what you're saying means all healers are like that, or that it's impossible to dps as a healer without it becoming the situation you're talking about.

[rockint]

...and nothing of what you're saying means all healers are like that, or that it's impossible to dps as a healer without it becoming the situation you're talking about.

I'm not saying that they're all like that or that it's impossible to DPS without letting your tank drop... I run with a healer that does great DPS, and keeps me up perfectly fine. Someone like him, I'll use cooldowns early so that he can get some extra damage in, because I know that if something happens and I drop, he'll get me back to full, so those cooldowns don't have to be used as defensively. But with a pug where I'm consistently sitting below 50%, my cooldowns are going to be more for emergencies.

They're not intended to just blindly use them on every pull so that your healer can do more damage. With a good healer, you can get away with it... But when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

[Instrumentality]

I'm not saying that they're all like that or that it's impossible to DPS without letting your tank drop... I run with a healer that does great DPS, and keeps me up perfectly fine. Someone like him, I'll use cooldowns early so that he can get some extra damage in, because I know that if something happens and I drop, he'll get me back to full, so those cooldowns don't have to be used as defensively. But with a pug where I'm consistently sitting below 50%, my cooldowns are going to be more for emergencies.

They're not intended to just blindly use them on every pull so that your healer can do more damage. With a good healer, you can get away with it... But when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

What is an emergency?

[Erim-Nelhah]

...when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

You just don't get it. If I pull a big enough group that it's tearing chunks outta me, I'm gonna pop Shadow Wall first, then Shadow Skin when that's about to expire (or if SW is unavailable), then other CDs if stuff isn't dead yet, regardless of what the healer's doing. By doing this, I will always live longer than you will in the same situation, also regardless of what the healer's doing. If I die despite using my CDs like that, it's either because I overpulled (oops), or because the healer wasn't doing his/her job. In the latter case, that's no excuse for me to not do mine. Something for you to consider.

--Erim Nelhah

[Anienai]

You just don't get it. If I pull a big enough group that it's tearing chunks outta me, I'm gonna pop Shadow Wall first, then Shadow Skin when that's about to expire (or if SW is unavailable), then other CDs if stuff isn't dead yet, regardless of what the healer's doing. By doing this, I will always live longer than you will in the same situation, also regardless of what the healer's doing. If I die despite using my CDs like that, it's either because I overpulled (oops), or because the healer wasn't doing his/her job. In the latter case, that's no excuse for me to not do mine. Something for you to consider.

--Erim Nelhah

Can you explain this to the ass-knight I had the pleasure of curing?

#Sirentank

[Yuni_Queen]

Can you explain this to the ass-knight I had the pleasure of curing?

I believe that's when Vote Kick can shine it's fabulous light.
There are three types of tanks:
1) I don't trust healers, I will use CDs >.>
2) I don't know what am i doing, i will pop shadow wall on 3 mob pull, so healer won't think i am noob :3
3) I AM INVINCIBLE WITH THIS POWER. SHADOW WALL? THERE IS NO PLACE ON MY HOTBARS FOR THIS SKILL.

Jokes on side, Erim made it just right. Sometimes healer is, rather than does, or pulls are badass. Cooldowns are not one-use-only, no need to hold back, use them all. I know all tanks want that.

[Whiteroom]

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

There is, you are just not using it.

And then you are blaming the failure on others.

[Kazumac]

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

No one will disagree with this statement by itself but your examples have shown you either don't know the strategy or have trouble outlining it. You have advocated using vengeance at 10% HP which would be better exemplified by using holmgang followed by equilibrium or inner beast (or both) and vengeance used earlier to slow the damage intake going from 90-10%.

Secondly you the example of saving cooldowns for tank busters. Again totally appropriate but you only mention using them after the buster hits. Again same as above. If what I'm saying makes sense please start articulating your argument in a way that conveys your understanding in a more thorough manner.