People are deliberately ruining the story for others

[Niwashi]

The problem is that you are singling out one side. You're putting the obligation to compromise and not have one's goals met COMPLETELY on the people who are there for a roulette and don't want to watch all the cutscenes, while absolving those who are there to see the cutscenes or get a full clear of any responsibility to compromise on what they want in any way.

I'm not singling out anyone. In any dungeon, or indeed any sort of group content, all sides should be willing to put in the effort (or time, as in this case) towards completing the goals of the entire group. That's not just true of CM and Prae. It's basic courtesy for any sort of group effort. I'm asking for the same courtesy from both sides. It's simply that in this particular case, one side is already providing that courtesy and the other isn't.

If the conflict were between one group who wants to race through skipping cutscenes to get their completion rewards, and another group who wants to watch the cutscenes and do most of the dungeon right up until the final boss and then force an abandon duty so that nobody could get any tomes from the run, then we'd have a genuine two way conflict of interest. And the solution would be just as I said, that the first group needs to wait for the cutscenes and the second group needs to wait for the completion, so that neither group is blocking the other's rewards. It would be every bit as selfish to block the run from completing and prevent anyone from getting any tomes as it is to block the plot from unfolding and prevent anyone from seeing the story.

But that's not the problem we're having, or at least half of it isn't. Nobody is blocking people's ability to get the completion tomes. The only conflict is about whether people should be allowed to do the story part of the run or not. Since only one side's goal is being disputed, then naturally saying to complete everyone's goals ends up being mostly about theirs.

So the seemingly one sided view stems from the basic fact that it's a one sided conflict to begin with. We currently have one group saying "we need to *exclusively* go for my goal only and totally eliminate yours", while we have another group saying "we need to accomplish all the goals here even though that means yours will take longer". Getting your reward later than you'd like is an inherently different situation from never getting it at all, so asking one side to give up getting their reward completely just so the other side can get theirs faster isn't something anyone could justify as fair, (despite the fact that they currently can get away with doing it anyway).

[Rebellius555]

Personally, I can understand both sides of this argument. Yes, it would be nice to watch the entire cutscene while entering a new dungeon or trial because it gives you a hint on what you will be dealing with there, as well as makes you understand the lore a little bit better. On the other hand I find it a little annoying when I'm forced to run a specific instance numerous times to get my loot and every time I get there I find a newbie watching a cutscene. Obviously I want to get past the grinding torture as soon as I can, because I'm not a big fan of it, but most of the time when I'm in a good mood and not in a rush I just ignore it and use that short period of time to check my phone, scratch my ear, take a sip of water or whatever. I mean it's not some long episode of popular tv series and so a minute or two won't hurt anybody.

[Duuude007]

We currently have one group saying we need to *exclusively* go for my goal only and totally eliminate yours

Yes, this IS a good point. I can see how 1 player wanting 7 to explicitly sit on their hands for 30 minutes while he or she gets to idle and watch a movie can seem unfair. After all, i'm sure the 7 had other things they wanted to use that time on. Totally eliminating their goal for efficiency.

Thankfully, that's not how it works. You want the perks of a majority vote? Then become the majority (i.e. pf/fc/linkshell/shout). Or be lazy and get quick queues in DF, where majority, again, is the law of the land.

[Andrea]

go for my goal only).

Yes this is exactly what you are doing, i am glad you see it now

[Niwashi]

i'm sure the 7 had other things they wanted to use that time on. Totally eliminating their goal for efficiency.

Well, if people would rather be using their time for something else, then they should be doing so rather than griefing those who want to do a dungeon. If indeed their goal were speed, then not doing the run at all would save even more time than skipping the cutscenes does. Of course, what it doesn't provide is their actual goal, which is the tomes they get as a reward.

If the reward you're after is tomes, and the reward someone else is after is the story of the game, then there's no justification for eliminating one of those two things while still getting the other.

You want the perks of a majority vote?

No, I don't. Unanimity trumps majority. I want everybody's goals to be met, not just mine and not just most people's, but everybody's. Whoever doesn't care about everyone's goals is being selfish.

[Ashkendor]

Whoever doesn't care about everyone's goals is being selfish.

You mean like the person that thinks 7 random strangers should be forced to watch 30+ minutes of cutscenes with them?

For once, I totally agree with you. It is selfish.

[Duuude007]

there's no justification for eliminating one of those two things while still getting the other.

Rather, there's no justification to consider players A's needs are more important than player B's needs. Because of this dilemma, an agreement is established at the beginning of any dungeon on how to proceed, majority rules.

Whoever doesn't care about everyone's goals is being selfish.

I couldn't agree more.

A great man once said:



Compromise HAS to be considered from BOTH sides, or you are truly contributing to the problem.

The selfish person would be the one who expects the 'many' to accommodate their wants, even when the wants are unreasonable. Without compromise, no less.

Unreasonable option 1: Individual is pressured to skip cutscenes, while the rest of the party clears the path ahead. The one is significantly punished by the many.

Unreasonable option 2: Individual takes his/her time watching all cutscenes at their own pace, while the rest of the party is forced to sit and do nothing for 30 or more minutes. The many are significantly punished for the one.

Compromising option: Individual takes his/her time watching all cutscenes at their own pace, while the rest of the party clears the path ahead. everyone gets something they want, both give up something negligible. Individual loses combat experience, but only until their 2nd visit. Party loses out on individuals contribution to the add and boss culling.

The differences cannot be more obvious.

[Zantitrach]

If its normal run time is more like 45 minutes, then they'll be just as happy with it at 45 minutes.

No, you'd need to make another roulette tier for CM and Prae alone and jack up the rewards on it. If you left it in the current roulette and FORCED the cutscenes on people? They WOULD drop. You would have people drop EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. 45+ minutes is NOT worth the current reward for them. 100%. If you tripled the reward, I MIGHT stick around for 45+ minutes. That's a heavy might depending on how many people are new.

[Aldora]

Well, it might be true that “The need of many outweighs the needs of the few”, but does that make their needs any less important?

Sure, if you have run the dungeon a million times, you don’t want to sit around waiting for someone to finish their cutscenes. However, you are most likely running the dungeons with 1 or 2 new players in it.

When i was farming tomes for my Anima Relic, people were saying “Yay! Thanks for the bonus!”, but after that they wouldn’t take the new player into consideration and simply dashed towards the exit. Especially in CM and Praetorium.

New players don’t really know what the flow of the dungeon is and where they should be going after a boss battle or a cutscene. So, there are plenty of new players being left behind, while the majority of the group runs towards the next boss. Some even get lost in the process, or die because the group decided to leash the group and the new player got caught in the wave of enemies returning to their original spawning location.

This here is not how we should be treating new players. Even if they are only classified as “the few”.

I’ve seen way to many runs where the new player got lost and the group basically replied “Well, sucks to be you” (not with these exact words, but you know what i mean) and continued. When i see a bonus message, i keep a close eye on the group, to see if they aren’t missing a key item (for instance for Maggie in Praetorium) or gets lost. If i see someone struggling, i’ll wait for them and guide them if needed.

How can we expect to get a decent community, if we can’t be bothered to actually help someone if they need it? How would you feel if people did that to you?

[Duuude007]

How would you feel if people did that to you?

Uh, it did happen to me. In a 100% FC party, no less. I got over it quickly because by my second entry I knew how rude it was to expect others to wait for me.

But sure, reasonable compromise from BOTH sides should be considered. Personally I'm willing to give up extra healer or tank or dps for the majority of the run (if it means I can finish before my son wakes up from his nap)- and in the process I've just helped get 6+ people past content that not too many seasoned players even queue for anymore. You are welcome.

Think about the time commitment you are forcing people to adjust to, with your unreasonable requirements and lack of compromise.

How? The only thing you see is the intro cutscene showing the dungeon name. and if you go to a dungeon for MSQ, it only shows a clip when you clicked exit
and the 2 lvl 49-50 8man MSQ instances are so face roll, people don't even care whether someone watches cutscenes or not

Please Re: CM and Praetorium only discussion.