FFXIV ARR is 3 this year, Server upgrades?

[Kosmos992k]

Servers dont generally get updated like home computers do.

That'll come as news to the infrastructure guys where I work since servers have a life-cycle just as desktops do.

Most of the "server/memory" limitations you hear about are not actual server HARDWARE limitations, but SOFTWARE limitations. or Client side limitations, as in, our minimum spec can't handle more than what we have, so we can't add this, that, and the other or that player would no longer be able to play without a pc upgrade

Almost every time limitations come up, with regard to player character data, the biggest limitation mentioned is always the ability to write back a complete copy of the live character data to the database every 15 seconds. The memory budget is tight both to keep client side requirements lower, but also to keep the data below a critical threshhold that prevents the constant backup of character data.

**snip**
Also, SE's side of things, and the datacenter where the servers reside are not where we see networking difficulty, but the ISP that controllers the backbone in the Montreal area. SE upgrading the networking they have in the datacenter would do nothing to relieve the dropped packets by the network infrastructure outside their control.

The biggest networking issue SE has with Level 3 is not bandwidth it's latency. Upgrading their internal backbone for the servers dioes have an impact, but it won't help latency as long as Level 3 are out to lunch.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

That'll come as news to the infrastructure guys where I work since servers have a life-cycle just as desktops do.


The biggest networking issue SE has with Level 3 is not bandwidth it's latency. Upgrading their internal backbone for the servers dioes have an impact, but it won't help latency as long as Level 3 are out to lunch.

I mean, most of the servers I service are 3+ years old. I actually work on far fewer new ones than old ones. You'd be surprised on how many companies still have 10 year old servers doing mission critical work. What I meant was more in the sense of gaming desktops, where people upgrade hardware every 1-3 years depending on how into the best they are.

Also, your latency increases when you cap out your bandwidth. Hence people lag when watching netflix and why the stop downloading porn comment gets thrown out so much when people stop lagging.

The issues with Level3 arise when their networks are at bandwidth capacity, and after that, we get latency issues and dropped packets due to the overload on their infrastructure.

[Kosmos992k]

I mean, most of the servers I service are 3+ years old. I actually work on far fewer new ones than old ones. You'd be surprised on how many companies still have 10 year old servers doing mission critical work. What I meant was more in the sense of gaming desktops, where people upgrade hardware every 1-3 years depending on how into the best they are.

OK, although 10 years is a hell of a long lifecycle for a server doing anything significant. Our RDBMS servers are on a much shorter leash. Mission critical stuff often involves legacy software that can't be changed, and requires maximum platform stability. We still have mainframes running decades old code because replacing it is seen as cost prohibitive until such time as a failure forces the issue. When that happens, I want to be in the meeting discussing it, because the opportunity cost of waiting for a failure would be quite extreme, and I want to hear how the managers involved justify saying that earlier action was cost prohibitive...

With regard to gaming PCs, gamers might not upgrade their entire PC every other year, but I bet the switch their GPUs more often than their whole rig, given the influence the GPU has on performance.

However the intent of this topic wasn't to have a back and forth about server life-cycles (important though that is), it was more about speculating over what improvements would be possible with improved server infrastructure.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

However the intent of this topic wasn't to have a back and forth about server life-cycles, it was more about speculating over what improvements would be possible with improved server infrastructure.

In that case, really the only thing we would see is increased processing speed and amount of data in cache, since they probably have the servers tied to large storage arrays. They could update the controller caches and add more server memory, but I think mostly SE would have to do re-coding of the software in order to get more of what you guys are looking for.

[Kosmos992k]

In that case, really the only thing we would see is increased processing speed and amount of data in cache, since they probably have the servers tied to large storage arrays. They could update the controller caches and add more server memory, but I think mostly SE would have to do re-coding of the software in order to get more of what you guys are looking for.

Well, of course changes to character design and such would require some re-coding of different aspects of the game, so does every expansion and major update. Better server hardware facilitates that exercise, and that is the point. If you no longer have such tight budgets in character data because you can double the database bandwidth for writing back character data, or loading characters into active zones, or whatever other aspect you want to discuss; you can start expanding on the existing character data without running into limits defined by the older hardware. Of course there will still be limits because clients need to be sent some character data in order to display other characters.

But let's not pretend that improving the server side would not benefit the game, which appears to be your position. I'm sure they use storage arrays, and there will be any number of in-line caches in the components of the system, but increasing the system bandwidth, number of processors, network bandwidth, system memory and so forth all have impacts in terms of what the server can do within a specific period of time, and alters the calculation as to how much character data can be moved/processed. That has a direct impact on what changes can be handled with respect to characters.

Honestly, the way you are talking, it sounds like you are basically saying that improved infrastructure means little to nothing - in which case perhaps we should all stick to PS3s and laptops with DSL network connections and be happy about it?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

What I'm saying is that its not the "big fix" everyone seems to think it is. If they got upgraded servers, it would not mean automatically everything is suddenly possible and any limitations that existed disappear, which is what most people seem to think.

Sure it would help them improve the game, but by how much? At what expense? How soon would we see these improvements?

A lot of the things people are requesting would require reworking the client application, as well as the server side services, client, and all that jazz.

[Kosmos992k]

What I'm saying is that its not the "big fix" everyone seems to think it is. If they got upgraded servers, it would not mean automatically everything is suddenly possible and any limitations that existed disappear, which is what most people seem to think.**snip**
A lot of the things people are requesting would require reworking the client application, as well as the server side services, client, and all that jazz.

OK, I understand better now. Sorry for the mis-understanding. I don't think it would fix anything overnight, but it would allow them to perform an incremental upgrade/update on the server side in preparation for changes introduced in a subsequent expansion. For example, 3.0 added flight and a new character race, along with zones that appear to be approximately 4-8 times larger than the ARR zones.

I wouldn't expect major changes to character options or modeling, or anything else like that outside of an expansion. But we are approaching 3 years, and the 1st anniversary of Heavensward. It just seems to me that now would be a good time for them to begin planning for a server refresh along side the 4.0 expansion; which would make it possible that we would see some of the changes people want to see with that expansion. Given how long it takes for major changes to materialize, I figured now would be a good time to start the conversation.

[Saccharin]

So with that 3 year mark advancing upon us, I wondered about server upgrades for FFXIV. With increasing network bandwidth and better server hardware, how many of the limitations we hear of might be overcome?

I doubt SE use any different hardware than any other MMO in fact it might even be newer. SE have upgraded their hardware at certain points when we had large maintenances.

What we've learned about the limitations it's due to SE's own server code and out muscling it is never a good idea.

The models are not limitations and are intentional to allow the game to not only run on consoles but also low spec PCs. Most people who play MMOs dont not have 'gaming rigs' but rather basic PCs; probably laptops. Models are also client side so SE could have the most powerful servers in the world but it wouldn't make a difference.

Are you willing to stagger onward with old server hardware? Servers age, and need refreshed, it's a fact of life with infrastructure.

A single realm is not made of just one server but multiple and there's many realms. This equipment is not cheap and would cost millions, maybe even 10s of millions to replace.