Hardcore crafters, SE has rewarded you big-time in this patch.

[MN_14]

Eh. Thing about that is, in all the 3star crafts I do using Maker's Mark (17 free steps), on average I'll get 2-3 Goods. Whistle is a heart breaking 36cp to start. So you not only need the 'goods' to count it down, but you need enough to trigger it to 9 to whistle for 15, then from 8 to 6 to whistle again for another cp. You're still 6 CP down at this point. It's difficult to justify the step loss during Maker's to use it, but it's also the best time -to- use it. You need 2 goods to hit 9, then 2 more to 6. That's not even breaking even, and if you're using whistle at those stacks you don't get the 3 stack benefit unless you're fine with getting RNG'd out of whistle.

Whistle While you Work really needs to be a one time use, free ability because I can't see it being worth the bother.

I haven't tried the specialist abilities with 3* crafts yet, but I have tested them on other master crafts sometimes using only level 15 cross class skills and steady hands 2, while other times with all of the level 50 cross class abilities.

I don't actually think specialist abilities are a good match with maker's mark because with the heart ability (I used it 3 times during my tests) and whistle while you work, you'll spend a lot of time using tricks of the trade and satisfaction. I found the biggest advantage to be the cheap durability restore from Nymeia's wheel.

With standard cross class abilities, you'll typically be able to restore 90 to 120 durability (although if you have WN1 equipped, you can sometimes technically add another 2 touches, but at that point excess CP is probably best used for precise touch) while with the specialist abilities, I can usually restore at least 120 durability and often 150 durability. Even without a major CP boost from food or melds, I doubt it would be difficult to restore at least 90 durability and maybe up to 120.

Without Maker's Mark, you'll likely use more durability for progress, but the CP you gain plus the savings from Nymeia wheel more than compensate for it unless you're unlucky with the good procs.

[Alahra]

I see this comment a lot these days, and to save what little space I can in this essay of a comment here's a link to a reply I made in this exact thread detailing all the ways gearing has been made easier since release

I should have been more specific (I'd seen your post before). Most of those changes weren't made with the purpose of facilitating folks catching up. They were made because the system as originally implemented required far too much investment for almost no actual reward.

I think they should have done more to make the items easier to acquire in 3.2 specifically, in parallel to the way they reduced the cost of Esoterics gear, removed the weekly lockout on it, and made Gobdip/twine/coats easier to acquire. The addition of the materials to the dungeons is normally how they do this, but something seems different about the drop rates this time, as I've not personally seen any drop since the patch. Compared to how common the materials drop in the i70, i80, and i90 dungeons in ARR, the difference is pretty striking.

You can catch up a class to i210 in a matter of days now with little effort, but you're going to be looking at more time to do so with i170 crafted gear unless you're sitting on a lot of gil, since the weekly lockouts are still in place, limiting the number of items you can acquire if you go the route of gathering them youself via Red Scrips. And of course, that requires having multiple classes at 60 (at the least, 1 crafter and 1 gatherer)—battle classes don't need to have that in place to quickly catch up (and also requires weekly capping of two currencies—twice what a battle class needs to do).

It's even worse for i180 crafters, who are still looking at the same total number of weeks to gear up that they've always had since 3.0. I don't even want to know what that wall would look like to a fresh level 60 crafter. They would be insane to choose the i180 path at this point (which honestly makes me wonder why the i180 path even exists).

Obviously, crafting is more about time investment than battle content is, so it's reasonable that the catch up period would be longer—but it's probably too much longer at this point.

How do we know they're not releasing a Crafting Relic?

We don't, but that's sort of the issue. If the two advancement paths are meant to be roughly parallel (as they were in 3.0/3.1), then i180 crafters should, I feel, have at least some ability to prepare, which does require at least some sense of of where things will go. The only sense we had of where the i180 gear would go had to be based on what gear was available in 3.0—and that gear provided us with more than enough stats for the top tier of crafting at the time. But the new i180 gear only gets us to the bare minimum instead, so the baseline seems to have changed, and with no information from the developers since prior to 3.0 regarding their design goals for i180 gear, we have no idea why, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future. Being able to plan is, I agree, a very important part of being a crafter.

But if one advancement path isn't going to be consistent in how it progresses, it significantly hampers the ability for players on that path to really plan, making it a notably suboptimal choice (something that say, tomestone gear isn't—it is still roughly equivalent, with the difference being relatively minor differences in "effective main stat" at the progression path's endpoint). As you've noted, I'm more of a "midcore" crafter, which is part of why I chose the i180 progression path. But as a midcore crafter, being something approaching optimal is important to me. Being able to make the items isn't enough to satisfy me: I want to also effectively participate in the market.

The i180 gear was more than capable of doing so in 3.0/3.1 relative to the i170 gear, now instead of being more than capable (by providing us with stats above minimums, allowing for CP food), it instead only reaches the bare minimums with food, and the CP gear leaves us with a very significant CP deficit that causes a heavy reliance on HQ materials. This impacts one's ability to participate in a market where the ability to HQ with NQ mats is greatly desired (understandably so, of course).

While I don't have time to find a quote I know for a fact they've stated that the i170 when overmelded would definitely be more powerful than the i180 and will edit with a quote when I can find the time.

There's no need, I'm pretty sure I remember the interview you're thinking of. They did say the i170 stuff would be the better option, and that was true in 3.0. But the gap between the two advancement paths is much larger now (since it's one of CP, rather than Crafts or Control, which have less of an impact past the minimums for whatever tier of crafting you're aiming for).

When i180 gear was introduced, the full set (with i110-i150 offhand and accessories) had far more craftsmanship and control than the two-star minimums. On that basis, and on the understanding that the i180 gear was created as an independent, parallel gear path, it was entirely reasonable to expect that the full set of i180 gear would at least give crafters adequate craftsmanship, control, or CP for three-star crafting, with the other two made up by food.

Exactly. Heavensward established a certain baseline of relative strength for the two advancement paths. That baseline is now significantly different, and different enough that it seems to me that either the developers improperly balanced the new gear additions, or they wanted a different baseline. If they did want a different baseline, I feel they should have at least given us some information regarding their design goals for i180 scrip gear, so that we could prepare accordingly.

The fact that she's having such an issue adjusting is, frankly, unfathomable to me, because she'd have to literally be doing nothing.

This is what I meant earlier when I said that people weren't actually responding to the things I'm actually saying. I've said numerous times that I'm able to craft the pieces. I'm not having "an issue adjusting" at all. What I am taking issue with is the apparent change in design direction from two roughly parallel gearing paths to one noticeably subpar gearing path and one functional gearing path.

One thing to consider is that a full i180 build with beet soup might have been balanced to go hand in hand with specialist abilities. Although non-ideal for those with sufficient CP, these abilities do work most of the time (under average RNG) and are particularly useful for CP recovery.

I've considered this myself, though I haven't experimented much with them. My experience with the Specialist abilities early on at 60 certainly didn't show that they were useful for CP recovery, though. I nearly always had less CP than if I hadn't used them. At some point when experimenting with the materials won't break my meager bank, I want to sit down and play with it and see if the longer synths will work out more in favor of Whistle While You Work, even so, but I'm skeptical they'll really make much of a difference.

[Sollux]

I should have been more specific (I'd seen your post before). Most of those changes weren't made with the purpose of facilitating folks catching up. They were made because the system as originally implemented required far too much investment for almost no actual reward.

You're right, I can't honestly say that all the changes were made to make it easier for others to catch up and you're right that a number of them were implemented to fix a broken system.

I think they should have done more to make the items easier to acquire in 3.2 specifically, in parallel to the way they reduced the cost of Esoterics gear, removed the weekly lockout on it, and made Gobdip/twine/coats easier to acquire. The addition of the materials to the dungeons is normally how they do this, but something seems different about the drop rates this time, as I've not personally seen any drop since the patch. Compared to how common the materials drop in the i70, i80, and i90 dungeons in ARR, the difference is pretty striking.

I agree that the caps should have at LEAST been raised, however historically they've only ever reduced gear cost and removed caps completely when a new Endgame gear set was released. We haven't had any new Scrips or any new gear besides the i180 accessories (Which are completely underwhelming by the way) and unlocking the caps now would be the equivalent of unlocking Lore gear a month or 2 before a new Tomestone is released.

We don't, but that's sort of the issue. If the two advancement paths are meant to be roughly parallel (as they were in 3.0/3.1), then i180 crafters should, I feel, have at least some ability to prepare, which does require at least some sense of of where things will go. The only sense we had of where the i180 gear would go had to be based on what gear was available in 3.0—and that gear provided us with more than enough stats for the top tier of crafting at the time. But the new i180 gear only gets us to the bare minimum instead, so the baseline seems to have changed, and with no information from the developers since prior to 3.0 regarding their design goals for i180 gear, we have no idea why, which makes it very difficult to plan for the future. Being able to plan is, I agree, a very important part of being a crafter.

Something that seems to be a recurring issue here is the idea that since Crafting progression is similar to Combat now it should be similar in other aspects as well. Compared to Combat, Crafting gear progression was historically slow and that hasn't change in 3.0. Yes, both the i170 and i180 gear was more than enough to Craft anything up to 3.2, but that's because it was intended to have a longer shelf life, NOT because it was a precedent to how gear progression would function in the future. Let me share a (rough) example of how gear levels vs recipe difficulty has functioned from 3.0-3.2.

I'm going to rate the Star Recipes and Crafting gear on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the strongest gearset/highest difficulty recipes. A gearset with an equivalent rating to a Starred Recipe means that gearset has the ability to Craft it, but just barely or at a sub-optimal level. Having a higher rating means the gearset can not only Craft that Recipe, but it can do so at more and more optimal levels depending on the difference:

Full White Gear - 5
1* Recipes - 6
Full White Gear Overmelded - 6-7
2* Recipes - 7
Full i170 Gear - 7
Full i180 Gear - 8
3* Recipes - 8
Full i170 Overmelded - 8-10

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but notice how I left room for a 4* Recipe that requires full overmelded i170 to Craft. Is it possible? Of course it is. Will it happen? Maybe. Will they release new gear before then? No one knows, and SE likely isn't going to tell us until the Patch Notes Preview or Live Letter a week before a Patch, but we can plan for it.

With SE being notoriously tight lipped on any kind of specific information regarding Crafting the players are forced to either plan for multiple contingencies or be left behind, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because Crafting is so heavily tied to the game's economy a single leak of a future change can DRASTICALLY affect the Market. Had we been specifically told that it would be difficult to Craft 3* Recipes in full i180 gear then the market for i170 mats/gear and materia would have SKYROCKETED from the very beginning, leaving anyone without a ton of gil or a Gatherer unable to obtain the i170 gear that they would eventually need. Instead it was up to the players to decide what they might eventually need, which meant those who planned ahead could Craft and meld i170 gear at a fraction of the price it's currently at.

In regards to SE's apparent Crafting information policies -

They've never once released Recipe difficulty information before a patch, and after a Patch it's only available on the Lodestone or by checking it in-game, not in the Patch Notes.

They never said i180 would be directly paralel to the i170's full potential, only that it was an alternate gear path.

Apart from general info such as the STR/VIT change and their stance on Crafted gear's strength over the years, they have never given us detailed information on what their plans are for future gear progression, nor how far you can go with a specific gearset (I doubt even THEY know what limits can be pushed depending on gear). It's up to the player to decide what works best for them and how they want to plan for the future, and THAT is the type of planning that set apart those who were able to take advantage of 3* Recipes early because they opted to Craft/buy/meld a few i170 pieces just in case they needed them.

This is what I meant earlier when I said that people weren't actually responding to the things I'm actually saying. I've said numerous times that I'm able to craft the pieces. I'm not having "an issue adjusting" at all. What I am taking issue with is the apparent change in design direction from two roughly parallel gearing paths to one noticeably sub-par gearing path and one functional gearing path.

There cannot be a "change in design direction" when the entire design has already been changed. 3.0 marked the first time we had an actual weekly token and lockout, and because of this we have no idea where they're planning to go with gear progression because there is no precedent. EVERYONE is flying blind when it comes to planning for gear progression. Can you imagine how someone who overmelded all i170 sets would feel if a new Scrip set was released that was easier to get and the equivalent or better than their current gear? They might have a small leg up on the competition for a while, but it would still feel like the effort they put into their gear was a waste of time, much like many i180 Crafters are feeling now. This is just an example, and their work might be paying off now, but it could have just as easily turned out to be a disaster.

It's important to remember that as much as we like to find similarities in gear progression to 2.0 Crafting or Combat gear the fact remains that the core design for Crafting gear progression has been changed, and even if it hadn't there would be nothing stopping SE from "shaking things up" and doing something different.

[Alahra]

They never said i180 would be directly paralel to the i170's full potential, only that it was an alternate gear path.

You're right, they didn't.

But they were directly parallel in 3.0, and we all had to make assumptions based on what would be coming in the future, with what information we had available to us. There are numerous precedents in game for alternate advancement paths that are roughly comparable to one another. I'm not saying that the progression paths for combat and crafting should be exact mirrors of each other: they are very different systems, and you can't just apply things in a one-size-fits all manner (in fact, I honestly think their attempt to make crafting progression more like combat progression is the source of most of the crafting issues in HW to begin with). But what I am saying is that it was reasonable to look at the gap between the two crafting paths in 3.0 and make certain educated guesses about how things would progress based on what other similar examples we have, especially since Yoshi-P himself compared the new crafting progression system to the progression systems for combat classes during the pre-release period.

Up until this point in the game's life, alternate progression paths have always reached the same basic level of strength to the primary one, with the exception of the change to Tomestone gear in 2.1. But they also explained that one to us: Yoshi-P wanted to make sure people still had incentive to raid. That's ultimately why I don't think the i180 gear path should be capable of hitting 3-star stats right now. But the i180 accessories also shouldn't be so abysmal that they wouldn't be worth waiting for, either.

It's up to the player to decide what works best for them and how they want to plan for the future, and THAT is the type of planning that set apart those who were able to take advantage of 3* Recipes early because they opted to Craft/buy/meld a few i170 pieces just in case they needed them.

I've said I don't think i180-only crafters should be able to craft the 3-star recipes right now. The early market is and should be entirely the realm of those crafters who do the additional work (much like early progression requires more investment into one's gear with pentamelded crafting gear, and so on). i180 crafters should have had to wait until they had the new gear, and the new gear should have been tuned such that they were on comparable footing to i170 crafters after they had waited the appropriate amount of time (perhaps 6-8 weeks, using the cost in tokens of the 3.0 180 gear as a guide). The system we have now instead allows i180 crafters to participate in the early market (at enough of a deficit that it's difficult for them to really take advantage of it), and they'll always be at a distinct disadvantage even after the 8 weeks they would have waited if the progression had followed a pattern based on what it was like in 3.0 itself.

It is the addition of this disadvantage that concerns me, as I have said numerous times. It essentially means in the long term that the i180 progression path has very little purpose, as newer crafters are going to find an increasingly larger and larger time investment to catch up on crafting. This is actually one of the things that the Red Scrip and Specialization systems were supposed to address, and if the progression path meant to help make it easier for players to get into crafting is significantly weaker, it's not exactly going to encourage people to engage with it when it takes a rather long amount of time. It currently takes 12 weeks for a fresh level 60 crafter to earn enough scrips to get the entire i180 set—that's almost the length of an entire major patch, at which point the 220 crafted gear won't even be relevant anymore in the face of new 24-man raid gear and the presumed removal of lockouts on Midas (Normal). And on top of that, they'll still be crafting the gear at a significant disadvantage.

[Nezerius]

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but notice how I left room for a 4* Recipe that requires full overmelded i170 to Craft. Is it possible? Of course it is. Will it happen? Maybe. Will they release new gear before then? No one knows, and SE likely isn't going to tell us until the Patch Notes Preview or Live Letter a week before a Patch, but we can plan for it.

If the stat requirement increase from 2* to 3* is anything to go by, then I can't see it being possible for a fully melded i170 crafter to get anywhere near the 4* stat requirement. Unless SE wants to force every crafter to use the 3* craft/control food.

SE likes to repeat things that it has done previously, so we're not entirely flying blind here. We also know there's likely going to be a new color of Rowena's Tokens:

Yoshida: When the level of crafter and gatherer equipment rises, the current Rowena's token will become an intermediate currency, red scrip and the current Rowena's token rates will be lowered, and a new Rowena's tokan will become the main exchange. Further carrying out high difficulty collection and production from there is the flow that leading players will want to keep up with.

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...with-Patch-3.2

What I think will happen is a universal crafting set being added in 3.3, along with materials that are obtained through the new color tokens. With mats that hopefully not, but likely will involve the favor system again.
This will be a repeat of the current i170/i180 sets, with one set being meldable, crafted from 3* recipes.
The other is simply bought with the new tokens, without the possibility of melds.

These sets will be required to reach the 4* stat requirement on the recipes that will be added in 3.4.

Why I think they'll be adding these new DoH sets in 3.3, instead of 3.4, is because it'll give crafters about 3-3.5 months of preparation for 4* crafting, so the crafted DoW/M gear is much more readily available, similar to the current 3* DoW/M gear.

[Sollux]

But what I am saying is that it was reasonable to look at the gap between the two crafting paths in 3.0 and make certain educated guesses about how things would progress based on what other similar examples we have, especially since Yoshi-P himself compared the new crafting progression system to the progression systems for combat classes during the pre-release period.

This is entirely subjective and not a conclusion everyone reaches. With Combat gear you can eventually reach the same ilvl and overall number of stats as Raid-level gear. With Crafting gear there is no way whatsoever for the i180 gear to be on the same level as an overmelded, and unless they implement a feature to do so or a new gearset I would say it's reasonable for an i180 Crafter to pick up some i170 gear in preparation for future difficulties.

We've been acting like this is a black and white subject and it's not. An i180 Crafter is more than capable of obtaining i170 gear, whether through Crafting or gil from profits (Or both), and I'm finding it hard to sympathize when the replacement of just the accessories can have a huge impact on their success and yet it's not being considered as an option.

I've directly said I don't think i180-only crafters should be able to craft the 3-star recipes right now. The early market is and should be entirely the realm of those crafters who do the additional work (much like early progression requires more investment into one's gear with pentamelded crafting gear, and so on). i180 crafters should have had to wait until they had the new gear, and the new gear should have been tuned such that they were on comparable footing to i170 crafters after they had waited the appropriate amount of time (perhaps 6-8 weeks, using the cost in tokens of the 3.0 180 gear as a guide). The system we have now instead allows i180 crafters to participate in the early market (at enough of a deficit that it's difficult for them to really take advantage of it), and they'll always be at a distinct disadvantage even after the 8 weeks they would have waited if the progression had followed a pattern based on what it was like in 3.0 itself.

I personally have no problem with i180 Crafters having immediate access to an early market if they're prepared enough that they meet the requirements. What I DO find disconcerting is the expectation that they would always be on the same level as a fully overmelded i170 Crafter. From the pure fact that i170 gear, when overmelded, trumps every single i180 gear piece in stats we KNEW an i170 Crafter would have an easier time on ANY recipe than an i180 Crafter, including having an easier time on future Recipes.

It is the addition of this disadvantage that concerns me, as I have said numerous times. It essentially means in the long term that the i180 progression path has very little purpose, as newer crafters are going to find an increasingly larger and larger time investment to catch up on crafting. This is actually one of the things that the Red Scrip and Specialization systems were supposed to address, and if the progression path meant to help make it easier for players to get into crafting is significantly weaker, it's not exactly going to encourage people to engage with it when it takes a rather long amount of time. It currently takes 12 weeks for a fresh level 60 crafter to earn enough scrips to get the entire i180 set—that's almost the length of an entire major patch, at which point the 220 crafted gear won't even be relevant anymore in the face of new 24-man raid gear and the presumed removal of lockouts on Midas (Normal). And on top of that, they'll still be crafting the gear at a significant disadvantage.

Neither the Red Scrip nor the Specialist System was built specifically to assist new players in catching up. Red Scrip gear was only intended as an alternate path to those unable to obtain i170 gear, and the Specialist System was intended to assist those who were unable to or didn't want to level multiple Crafting classes but still wanted to be able to HQ their items without the cross-class skills. That being said, the only thing stopping Red Scrip gear from helping a new player catch up is the weekly cap and/or the gear prices, and the Specialist System is a WHOLE OTHER thread worth of issues.

New players and new lvl 60 Crafters will have a difficult time catching up to 3*, yes, but that's both the nature of the current system and it's intent. Reaching 3* is the current Crafting Endgame, and the current system was built in such a way that that Endgame isn't 1 week long and Crafting becomes boring or stagnant for the next 3 months. SE wants Crafters to enjoy Crafting just as much as they want Combat classes to enjoy Combat. The system isn't perfect by any means, and I wholeheartedly agree there should have been more things implemented to help fresh 60 Crafters, but I enjoyed my journey to reach the point that I'm at now with my Crafts and I'm glad they're finally taking Crafting seriously because it's one of the most complex and enjoyable systems I have ever had the pleasure to work with and I'm always left wanting more when I finish a set.

[Sollux]

-Snip-

I honestly agree with the majority of this, and I've been planning accordingly by putting aside some gil so I can use it as a jump-start on the next level of gear progression. Should this occur in 3.4 rather than 3.3 it will just mean I have that much longer to prepare.

[Alahra]

We've been acting like this is a black and white subject and it's not. An i180 Crafter is more than capable of obtaining i170 gear, whether through Crafting or gil from profits (Or both), and I'm finding it hard to sympathize when the replacement of just the accessories can have a huge impact on their success and yet it's not being considered as an option.

That's exactly what I'm planning to do, actually. I'm finishing up BTN tonight so that I can start gathering the Red Scrip materials with it. After I have the accessories done, I'll slowly work on replacing my i180 left side with i170 pentamelds.

But I feel like I'm not communicating my position clearly, and I can't think of any other ways to convey it, so I'm just going to bow out of the discussion. Thank you for being civil about it.

[Aarik]

I love how everyone is just rolling in mountains of gil for all their hard work. Hey guess what class I specialized in, what class I maxed 170 HQ melded gear for? Blacksmith. Guess how much gil I, and any other Blacksmith has made from this patch. A heaping ton of....zero. You know the last time Blacksmith has been relevant in ANY fashion? A year ago with Wootz weapons. So yeah, SE sure did reward us alright, thanks for that low-blow, SE! Here's to you and, in the words of a wise Chinese proverb; may your life be eventful.

[Eul]

I love how everyone is just rolling in mountains of gil for all their hard work. Hey guess what class I specialized in, what class I maxed 170 HQ melded gear for? Blacksmith. Guess how much gil I, and any other Blacksmith has made from this patch. A heaping ton of....zero. You know the last time Blacksmith has been relevant in ANY fashion? A year ago with Wootz weapons. So yeah, SE sure did reward us alright, thanks for that low-blow, SE! Here's to you and, in the words of a wise Chinese proverb; may your life be eventful.

Isn't blacksmith can make money from Replica allagan and high allagan weapon?