A mid-core content for mid-core players.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Translation: "I have no real counter argument so I'm nitpicking your example."

/thumbsup

Hey I offered you advice the next time you hyperbole. Don't be so down about it. We all make mistakes.

[Dajinn]

Best thing I've read in weeks. I couldn't agree more.

Raiding in 2.x really nailed it. The Coils of Bahamut were perfect difficulty for mid-core+ raiders. Savage was perfect for the true hardcores. For the casuals and the people who just aren't incredibly skilled, there were the 24-mans. There was something for everyone. Now everything is getting so dumbed down that people are bored and have little sense of accomplishment.

I used to post Coil clears on the front page of our FC website. I don't even bother with Alex Normal. That would be like posting news of a Void Ark clear.

Well, I'm still saying that every turn of every coil should be relevant for gearing purposes, not just the last turn to unlock the most recent coil. But yes, I agree with your take on my view.

Hell, even with only T5 and T9 being required to get into FCoB, at least the T9 weapon was still pretty decent that it made getting the 115 weapon actually relevant since it was usually better than the Shiva weapon and was a good interim until the tomestone from T10.

I also hate to say but I feel like the entire "system" in place is based and heavily reliant on console(the platform, e.g. PS3/PS4) accessibility. Like, I just can't see an MMO with more classic per-raid-tier content progression being popular or practical for the console format or for the console user base. So what we get instead is subpar content, gear vendors/gear resets, and the tomestone system.

[Vieilocean]

The real problem with this game is the actual lack of progression you get from anything besides from the current content patch and with the Savage implementation.

Literally every patch is a reset with uncapped tomestones, a new primal, and 4 new normal/savage bosses. And useless 4 mans.
So the first thing is all of the content before the current patch is basically useless to the point where no one runs it for progression or for gear, only for vain mount drops(which is fine if you care about that stuff, just calling it what it is). So it leaves out any sense of progression you -could- be getting from "mid-core" content by actually having to do it by gearing up and going through content that would be relevant if it weren't for "content resets" every major patch.

We actually kind of saw this "fail" with Bismarck Ex being pretty much nothing but a block for Ravana Ex, since 180 gear was already in the game, why bother running it?

...and is also for this that I suggest this content. No progression of gear. Just fun and unique rewards in glamours and achievements. We already have a lot of contents for gear progression to farm.

The next problem is the implementation of the "Savage" difficult for the special try-hard snowflakes this game seems to attract. Some will get mad at that statement but that's pretty much why we got Savage at all for SCoB.

The 3 binding coils of bahamut were already challenging enough in normal mode for most players that it actually required coordination, statics, and practice. Unlike the faceroll 24 mans and 8 man "normal"(pfft, aka, "Story")mode Alexander "raids"(aka super casual version of LFR).

The "Savage" mode should go back from being the only sensible means of progression this game offers(at this point in Heavensward) to being the mode that the special try-hard snowflakes do once they've already cleared everything and want a ridiculous challenge(if they have nothing else to do and want special titles and world firsts) for only the absolute top-tier teams.

After that, the normal versions of Alexander Gordias and Midas should be buffed up to 1st and 2nd coil difficulty standards, with the last wing of Alexander being on par with final coil standards. The whole thing of them being faceroll-tier for "story" and "casual" purposes just needs to be dropped, if players want to see the Alexander story, which isn't even the actual main-scenario and is technically a side quest, they should be willing to put in the time to clear the raids.

For me here you missed the point. Alexander Savage is already the old CoB in terms of content. They only add the normal mode to allow the casual players to see the story of the raid. Gordias Savage was too hard cause, during Fanfests and others conventions, people asked to Yoshi-p to realize a raid harder then CoB, but Yoshi-p went too far on this (he also admit it). In fact Midas Savage is way more near the old CoB in terms of difficulty.

Next, there should be a major revision to vendor gear and the tomestone system(not a revision to the gear itself just the means of attainment) that actually forces players to progress through 'older' but still relevant content to be able to meet gear checks for newer raids. This is similar to the raid progression in the original WoW, where, aside from garbage itemization in the game's early state, you raided up from tiers 1 to 3, progressing through MC and becoming adequately geared for BWL, then becoming adequately geared for new 20 mans and AQ40, and so on. Say what you will about how extremely casual the raid process has become these days for both FFXIV and WoW but there's no doubt it kept content relevant.

So for example, to even think about stepping into Alexander Midas you would need a raid team adequately geared from doing Gordias which isn't out of the question at ALL considering how long Gordias was available before Midas launched. And to do Sephirot Ex comfortably to get the 220 weapon to progress easier through Midas you should have had to have done Gordias multiple times with a consistent static to gear up and gotten the 210 weapon from A4S.

Unfortunately the "natural" progression of PvE content is butchered with gear vendors and the tomestone system. I'm not saying they should be removed but they're a huge part of why each launch of an expansion and patch this game has huge chunks of content that literally just become "glamour runs". At this time I don't have any suggestions on how to revamp gear vendors and tomestones but again I feel like they contribute to the problem and maybe crafted gear to some extent.

Lastly, dungeons also need a gear revamp to make them relevant for purposes besides daily roulettes. And if Savage stopped dropping loot obviously some gear shuffling would need to take place.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

I agree on this. I'm in love with horizontal progression, I'm raised as mmo-player in GW1 where vertical progression was totally absent. And also for this I opened this thread.

[Niwashi]

You're right, but an EX primal's Farm-parties disband after few tries cause you take the loot only if you clear it. In this content the loots are all over the instance, the last boss basically it's only for challenge's satisfaction.

You'd have people who really want that challenge satisfaction and are aiming to unlock and defeat the final boss, but they're paired up with other players who just want to explore a bit and do a couple of the easier quests and then leave. (That might be solvable by letting the later group leave when they want and those remaining recruit new members in-progress. But it's something to be considered when setting the system up.)

Cool idea overall

[SpiritMuse]

I just imagine how 'fun' learning Thordan EX would have been If you had to run some long instance for every time you wipe.
Is this really mid core or more geared toward true genius players and/or no lifers?

Exactly. Severe punishments for failure =/= challenging.

[Vieilocean]

You'd have people who really want that challenge satisfaction and are aiming to unlock and defeat the final boss, but they're paired up with other players who just want to explore a bit and do a couple of the easier quests and then leave. (That might be solvable by letting the later group leave when they want and those remaining recruit new members in-progress. But it's something to be considered when setting the system up.)

Cool idea overall

To resolve this eventuality I wrote the 13th point. With PF or an achievements system you can make different party before joining the instance.

[Vieilocean]

Okay so since i should be studying, I might as well work out my idea I posted on the first page, see post #4: "What about a defend the castle-themed instance? Not an entire zone, and not the usual 'go there, kill everything, go deeper, kill everything' but something like defend This city or castle, where there are up to 10 paths with different bosses and interiors (ranging from a dungeon to alleys to inside the main keep) with their own rewards, but where killing certain mobs or talking to a certain npc triggers a certain path?"

Okay so this is based on a few things, like the 'defend Minas Tirith' level in the RotK game, Rift's Hammerknell raid, GW2's dungeon path system and my experiences in FF14 so far.
As of writing this, I have NOT played beyond lvl 54 yet.

The underlying idea it's pretty interesting. Nothing to add here.

So the setting would be a castle. Here it could be any Ishgardian castle. For now, the idea is 8, maybe 10 players. You start on the walls with the usual thrash, which will be called Map 1, and as you fail or succeed, you're forced to retreat to different places/having repelled the thrash assault go on to another place thats under siege, respectively map 2.1 and 2.2 from now. From 2.1 and 2.2 you'll be able to choose different paths, with different bosses and different mechanics, and maybe different loot, or just dropping a token which you can redeem for gear of your choice (Maybe redeemable tokens in NM, and real gear in HM). Possibly you can make 4 levels of gear, with 1. Loot from bosses from map 2.1 NM, 2. loot from bosses map 2.2 NM, 3. loot from weakest bosses map 2.1 HM and 4. loot from bosses map 2.2 HM.
The different bosses will require certain classes, for a certain point. An example would be running from a boulder that'll crush you, where you need the Bard's speed buff, cause you're TP is constantly drained due to a debuff. This is NOT gambling, when entering a dungeon with a certain party, as small hints will be shown, that give the party an idea what class is needed for that path (a picture of a music note implying bard songs next to an entrance).
The dungeon itself would be mediocre hard, it gives a challenge, and yes you might wipe, but its still easier than the hardest hardcore content, because lets be honest, even a dungeon with this replayability isn't fun when you clear all paths in 2-3 weeks. REMEMBER: this instance is less about dodging circles, beams or clearing dps checks, and more about a fun and innovative way to make certain classes needed in certain dungeons.

1- A content of 8 players is more then enough. Too many people will be difficult to find.
2- What kind of gear? If it has a level-progression's rewards, the mid-core content idea it's totally killed.
3- The idea behind a content based on mechanics that requires specific jobs it's risky. Devs must create mechanics (paths) with equal difficulty, otherwise people will choose always the easier one. Also, mechanics imply coordination within the party, so the content requires more overall balancing cause you can risk to create another hard-core raid (Alexander) if the mechanics are too severe or another mindless dungeon if they're too easy. As I said it's surely risky, but not impossible.

[Thayos]

The key to successful midcore content is having mechanics that only a few people need to do. That's what made things like Dynamis back in FFXI seem both simple and complex at the same time. Casual players just had to show up and provide muscle, while the regulars handled pulls, calling out nuke times, etc.

[Vieilocean]

The key to successful midcore content is having mechanics that only a few people need to do. That's what made things like Dynamis back in FFXI seem both simple and complex at the same time. Casual players just had to show up and provide muscle, while the regulars handled pulls, calling out nuke times, etc.

This is a good suggestion for sure. I do not like it much, cause you put the fate of the runs on few people while others has zero responsability. It can works for sure, but I'll stay with my idea.

[Khalithar]

I do not like it much, cause you put the fate of the runs on few people while others has zero responsability.

What Thayos said is actually pretty normal for a lot of raiders using ventrilo/teamspeak though. Raiding throughout WoW, Swtor, and a few other games as a raider or a raid leader, we always designated a person as a "caller" that called out the main mechanics to watch out for, having one person focus on calling out mechanics freed up other people to worry about other things and we kept the channels clear so everyone was able to hear them and pay attention. Other people only called out relevant mechanics if they had to, i.e. the caller would warn us of major attacks while the tanks would call to each other for swaps or cleave mechanics.

Who your caller is depends on the fight and your group. In one guild I was in, the main tank (usually me) would call out mechanics but in fights where I was tanking a particularly large raid boss and couldn't see what was happening, I'd have one of the healers or dps do it. In another it was always our raid leader who was a ranged dps that did it. You get the idea.