Why do people want Blue Mage in this game?

[Niwashi]

The thing is that all classes are designed around 18 abilities and 11 traits, with 10 job abilities on top of that. You could make an ability system exclusive to BLU, but I find that unlikely given how crunched for time the devs say they are; it'd be cheaper and more efficient to build something off the acquisition system already in place.

If they're going to add any job at all it means designing and adding new skills, regardless of how crunched for time they are. I'm sure that's a far bigger effort than simply coding the timing of when a skill is unlocked.

And the number of skills could be similar to other jobs if they want it to be. (It might also be fun if they added lots of available skills and let us slot a given number of them, but I agree that that particular variation would take more development effort.) The number of skills and the means of obtaining them are two quite different issues.

Secondly, most monster skills deal only damage and few are those that have anything that would work for BLU without any changes. Some of them are even exclusive to dungeons. For example if BLU had access to Rhyno Attack from beetles, you could have them learn it by being hit by the attack enough. Problem is beetles that use Rhyno attack only exist in Hard Mode Lost City of Amdapor. It'd be better to just let the BLU get a weak version of the ability upon reaching the required level and unlock the spell's full power by killing X number of mobs belonging to the beetle family; including the lv1 beetles that are outside Ul'dah.

Well, I don't really see a problem with learning something from the Lost City of Amdapor, if it comes to that, but if they want it available on a wider scale, they'd just include more mobs in the list of enemies you can learn it from. It's not that different from your own suggestion here about adding more mobs to the list of ones that can boost a spell to its full power. The main difference being I'd only include mobs at a level appropriate to when the skill should be learned. (I just can't see boosting the power of a level 50 skill by killing a few level 1 beetles.)

You object to learning a skill by fighting mobs as too much of a departure from the current system, but then suggest in its place we effectively learn traits by fighting mobs instead, which is at least as big of a departure from the current system. (That's if this "unlocking the spell's full power" you mentioned is effectively a trait, which is the nearest equivalent to that I can think of.)

Don't get me wrong. I like your idea, too. I just don't think it's the only option. Learning blue magic by using some type of magic-capturing skill (like Quina's "Eat" command from IX) while fighting specific mobs would work as well.

[Duelle]

If they're going to add any job at all it means designing and adding new skills, regardless of how crunched for time they are. I'm sure that's a far bigger effort than simply coding the timing of when a skill is unlocked.

I would think so, but between Yoshida having said the balance team doesn't want to do 2 new jobs for an expansion because it's too much work combined with what we got with Heavensward (MCH and AST are a little too similar to other classes, with the latter built to mimick the two existing healers instead of aiming to do its own thing), I'm not exactly brimming with confidence. I more expect them to stick to existing systems and go from there.

Well, I don't really see a problem with learning something from the Lost City of Amdapor, if it comes to that, but if they want it available on a wider scale, they'd just include more mobs in the list of enemies you can learn it from. It's not that different from your own suggestion here about adding more mobs to the list of ones that can boost a spell to its full power. The main difference being I'd only include mobs at a level appropriate to when the skill should be learned. (I just can't see boosting the power of a level 50 skill by killing a few level 1 beetles.)

The way dungeon runs go wouldn't really accommodate spell learning, but my point was that dungeon mobs seem to have more in the way of abilities with effects that could work for BLU. Another example is the fact that overworld Vultures don't have a knockback built into Wing Cutter, whereas Vultures in dungeons do (at least as of the last time I had anything to do with Vultures). So if you wanted BLU to learn Wing Cutter to have access to a knockback ability, you'd either have to change overworld Vultures so that their Wing Cutter has the knockback, force the BLU to learn it in a dungeon, or implement an alternative that bends the rules.

[Niwashi]

The way dungeon runs go wouldn't really accommodate spell learning

Really? I'd think dungeons would make ideal places for Blue Mages to gain skills. As you've pointed out yourself, they're often the places with the most good mob skills in use. The part I still don't get is why you seem to think that's a bad thing.

[RiceisNice]

Really? I'd think dungeons would make ideal places for Blue Mages to gain skills. As you've pointed out yourself, they're often the places with the most good mob skills in use. The part I still don't get is why you seem to think that's a bad thing.

You don't want BLU getting special treatment in regards to how they obtain the skills (requiring a dungeon run). Though making them go to said dungeon entrance and doing a solo instance is fair game, though.

This point is moot when people bring up BLU on FFXI, which is an online game, and it's absolutely one of the best BLU versions ever made, if not the best.

This isn't FFXI, though.

[Niwashi]

You don't want BLU getting special treatment in regards to how they obtain the skills (requiring a dungeon run).

Blue Mages always obtain skills differently than any other job because that's what makes them a Blue Mage. As for a skill requiring a dungeon, is it all that different than a skill requiring a trial? Summoners already have extra requirements than other jobs because they can't gain an Egi until they've defeated the associated primal. So if you're looking for all jobs to have the same requirements, that's not even the case now.

[Warlyx]

Blue Mages always obtain skills differently than any other job because that's what makes them a Blue Mage. As for a skill requiring a dungeon, is it all that different than a skill requiring a trial? Summoners already have extra requirements than other jobs because they can't gain an Egi until they've defeated the associated primal. So if you're looking for all jobs to have the same requirements, that's not even the case now.

huh? thats a class quest , afaik no job needs to do a 4 or 8 man to get any skills.

the issue with rdm and blu and even Dnc or any other job that is that....jack of all trades master of none doesnt work in a trinity game , outside of having specs that make u tank / heal / dps

would be cool having a blu tank , that uses cocoon for -% dmg taken , posion breath as aoe agro tool .... screwdriver as dps , bomb toss for aoe , and for healer , plenty of options too..

in the end rdm and blu will be only 1/3 of what could have been....since can only be 1 role instead of any of the 3 (4 if u count ranged dps)

in FFXI a rdm can tank , dps (kinda) , and heal , a blu can tank too , dps , and heal (kinda ,has spam single heals , aoe heals even aoe stonekin)

[Niwashi]

huh? thats a class quest , afaik no job needs to do a 4 or 8 man to get any skills.

A Summoner's skills do come from their job quests, but they still have the trial requirements that no other job has. That the level 30 Summoner quest requires completion of the Ifrit trial became irrelevant once the rule changed to require the later Slyph Management quest for all level 30 job quests, so now to unlock any job you have to have fought Ifrit. However, the fact that the level 35 Summoner quest requires completion of the Titan trial and the level 45 one requires completion of the Garuda trial are requirements that no other job has.

If SE can add those extra requirements that are just for Summoner because they're specifically tied to how Summoner works, then they could add dungeon requirements to Blue Mage if they decide that would fit with how Blue Mage works.

[RiceisNice]

Blue Mages always obtain skills differently than any other job because that's what makes them a Blue Mage. As for a skill requiring a dungeon, is it all that different than a skill requiring a trial? Summoners already have extra requirements than other jobs because they can't gain an Egi until they've defeated the associated primal. So if you're looking for all jobs to have the same requirements, that's not even the case now.

But their job quest does not require the trial itself as the objective. On top of that, the primals are part of the MSQ, while not necessarily all dungeons are part of the MSQ unless you want to tunnel abilities to those specific dungeons. I don't even feel the prereqisuites are that much of a problem because the MSQ requirements start to out level you (esp for garuda) that you'd probably unlock them first before getting to 35/45 respectively. And as I mentioned before, solo instances are fair game and the setting could be in said dungeon.

DRK was butchered the moment they took its signature moves, what made a DRK in the first place, out. Is it well designed? Yes. Is it fun to play? Of course. Does it feel like a DRK? No. Why? Because I can't do what they always could, so might as well call it something else and it will still be well designed, fun to play, would do the exact same it already does in XIV, but it wouldn't feel like a DRK because it wouldn't even share the name.

Depends on the player perspective. Some people feel that the current incarnation of BLM isn't true to tradition because they have no way to exploit the elemental wheel, as well as SMNS not dealing damage primarily from their egis (or having spectacular effects from the summons, or both). I feel that it captures the aesthetics of a DRK just fine through their animations, while at the same time giving them a distinct feel to their flow of combat through dorkside and mana.

[Tanathya]

Depends on the player perspective. Some people feel that the current incarnation of BLM isn't true to tradition because they have no way to exploit the elemental wheel, as well as SMNS not dealing damage primarily from their egis (or having spectacular effects from the summons, or both). I feel that it captures the aesthetics of a DRK just fine through their animations, while at the same time giving them a distinct feel to their flow of combat through dorkside and mana.

BLM isn't true to tradition, but they still do what they're supposed to do and use those skills/spells. DRK doesn't, there's a *huge* difference there.

[Duelle]

Really? I'd think dungeons would make ideal places for Blue Mages to gain skills. As you've pointed out yourself, they're often the places with the most good mob skills in use. The part I still don't get is why you seem to think that's a bad thing.

You say this now, but knowing people the way I know them, this is more likely:

BLU: Hey Duelle, let me tank the next giant Beetle so I can learn Rhyno Attack from it.

Me: Erm...you're a mage, with a mage-level HP bar. You're gonna get 3 shot...

WHM: Just hurry i wanna get thise over with.

Other DPS: I want my tomez nao!!!!!!

Bickering ensues, etc, etc.

A Summoner's skills do come from their job quests, but they still have the trial requirements that no other job has. That the level 30 Summoner quest requires completion of the Ifrit trial became irrelevant once the rule changed to require the later Slyph Management quest for all level 30 job quests, so now to unlock any job you have to have fought Ifrit. However, the fact that the level 35 Summoner quest requires completion of the Titan trial and the level 45 one requires completion of the Garuda trial are requirements that no other job has.

If SE can add those extra requirements that are just for Summoner because they're specifically tied to how Summoner works, then they could add dungeon requirements to Blue Mage if they decide that would fit with how Blue Mage works.

I see what you're getting at, but that's apples and oranges. Summoners are a special case given where their abilities and power come from. They still follow the 18-ability rule (because it's a job built atop Arcanist), and their job abilities outside of Summon III are still following the design paradigms set for every job.

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I think the discussion hasn't really set any sort of rules in particular. For example, I'm assuming BLU will be unlocked as a lv30 job the way it went for DRK, MCH and AST. That means that the unlock quest will likely involve you equipping the Soul of the Blue Mage and getting a quest tuned for a lv30 BLU to complete and unlock your first job ability. As we saw in unlocking the Heavensward jobs, you equip the crystal and all of a sudden you get 30 levels worth of abilities. That's where the problem stems from for me, and my preferred solution is having the BLU start out with abilities learned, but in a weak/incomplete stage. Strong enough to clear the unlock quest but a far cry from ideal should the BLU want to afterwards queue for duty finder.

My timeline would go as follows:

1) Unlock quest: Circumstances cause you to equip the BLU job crystal.
2a) My suggestion: You gain the standard faire of abilities a lv30 job would have. These abilities are weak but enough to get you through the quest, after which you'd have to go and kill the prescribed number of mobs to get yourself caught up.
2b) Alternative suggestion: You gain only the very basics (following my write up, this would mean you only have Magic Missile, Efflux, Magus Fist and Lancet upon equipping the BLU crystal) and the unlock quest itself has you killing a bunch of different mob types to populate the "empty" 1-30 ability slots.
3) The unlock quests ends with you fighting an Archaeodaemon that after defeating you absorb to learn you first Greater Blue Magic spell, Lifebreak.