[spoilers]3.2 MSQ Discussion/Reaction thread

[Nalien]

Why would he want us to strengthen the Primals and risk getting hurt if he wants us to deal with the Triad later?

I definitely don't think us smashing the gems had anything to do with the power up from hard to extreme, since both Ravana and Bismarck were shown in combat prior to our initial fight with them; Ravana took on Shiva, and we saw the Garlean ships chasing Bismarck. They were both softened up for us the first time, the extreme version was just us going against them for real.

Based on the other half of the Diabolical Bismarck journal, I actually wonder if this is more a case of just doing things as they were written;

Chief Sonu reveals that in returning to Ok'Zundu with the Weeping Eye of the Manukmani, you were fulfilling an ancient prophecy. Legend has it that a Vanu elder once cast the eyes into the Sea of Clouds, proclaiming that they would return to the Vanu in the possession of a hero, who would then deliver them from destruction. And so, your battle with the White shall be preserved and passed down from generation to generation, doubtless growing greater with each telling...

Your victory was written in the aether, and Unukalhai read it long before you returned. Yet you know all too well not to rejoiuce overmuch in the accomplishment, for such treats are wont to return again and again.

Now... That has me casting doubts on what is really going on here with Elidibus and Urianger... Giving us the means to fulfill prophecy? Lets hope that's limited to Vanu legend, and not a certain piece of apocrypha that's seemingly being used to unite us against a common enemy... Plot twist, the Warring Triad is our Crystalism and we just botched the Rite of Awakening, just as planned... What have you done to me, Airy?!

PS: Best pre-3D, perhaps...

[CyrilLucifer]

The idea of which things being pre-ordained and what he really means by balance and the 'fate of this very star' is and has always been the entire issue regarding Elidibus.

I've used that Elidibus quote three times in the thread about how Urianger knows what must be done regarding fate, but here we go again:

Our fates were ordained long ago, Archon. The Garleans are no exception. Nor the Triad. You know what must be done.

Then, right after this cutscene (3.1 ending) you go to the Sands and get this gem from Urianger:

The final verse of the Divine Chronicles foretelleth the destruction of the world. But if it is our fate to perish, so, too, is it our fate to fight.

So from what we're told by Urianger and what we know, the only conclusion I can draw is that a horrible fate is written and Elidibus seems to actually want to avoid it.

Hence why there's always the argument on these forums on if the Ascians are fighting for or against fate.

What it all comes back to, in every thread, is that Ascians are not a hive mind. Lahabrea seemed to want to bring this fate on - by his will, not His will; Elidibus seems to be supporting a means to bring that fate upon Hydaelyn in a different way, else why would he be telling Urianger about it and likely that there are ways to stop it?

Regarding the fate comments -
Unukalhai mentions that you were also fulfilling your fate by killing Thordan. The quote is actually interesting:

Know that we do not condemn you for striking down the archbishop. You were simply fulfilling your destiny.

But who is 'we' referring to? Urianger and Elidibus? Hydaelyn? Ascians in general?

That's why my best guess is what it is; you can't break the laws of the universe, fighting fate directly is impossible. However, you can alter its flow. Elidibus doesn't want Hydaelyn gone, it's bad because then he can't have his balance. He doesn't seek the ultimate destruction of everything - that is bad for his master, too. Now once Zodiark is revived? Well, who knows. He might.

[Fenral]

Now... That has me casting doubts on what is really going on here with Elidibus and Urianger... Giving us the means to fulfill prophecy? Lets hope that's limited to Vanu legend, and not a certain piece of apocrypha that's seemingly being used to unite us against a common enemy...

I have a feeling Urianger wouldn't be talking about fighting destiny if he had been assured everything was going according to plan. Usually, a book becomes "apocrypha" when it says something that people don't want to hear, or contradicts something commonly held to be true. If going according to destiny was such a great thing for the world, the Gerun Oracles would never have become apocrypha.\

Only counterarguments I can think of involve citing either Tales of the Abyss or Kingdoms of Amalur. Both involve worlds with a set-in-stone "end of the world" approaching (literally in Abyss's case). In Tales of the Abyss, the one person with the good sense to try and fight back (by trying to destroy destiny itself) actually ended up being the primary cause of the foretold destruction, and in either case it took the intervention of someone who, for various plot reasons, wasn't recorded in fate to push the world past its deadline.

So while we most certainly have no choice but to fight whatever horrible fate awaits us, if it's written down in any detail our struggle against it could very well be as well, barring the existence of some loophole that Eldibus almost surely seeks to exploit. Hell, even if he does simply want to take over the world for himself, there has to be a world left for him to take over.

[AutumnHarvestwind]

ELDRANT

((*spits out coffee* i love tales of the abyss thank you for using that example okay i am back to lurking))

[CyrilLucifer]

Ooh Amalur. That game is certainly a very fascinating exercise of looking at fate.
Even the ability to defy it is somewhat similar to our Echo, what with tearing the fabric of existence.

I actually found some of the themes in that game regarding fate to be terribly disturbing.

[Nalien]

Lahabrea seemed to want to bring this fate on

Fairly sure Lahabrea just wanted to bring about the next Rejoining, same as Nabriales... He didn't want to release the Warring Triad, quite the opposite in fact, he took Thordan to Azys Lla to absorb them. The very same thing we were apparently stopping Bismarck and Ravana from doing, so why is Thordan OK to drink that sweet sweet aether, but Bismarck and Ravana aren't? Well, Thordan was under their control, or so they thought, while Bismarck and Ravana simply aren't.

What does that have to do with the Rejoining, though? Well, same thing Tupsimati had to do with the Rejoining... Nabriales wanted that staff for the Rejoining, and all we know is that it could channel vast quantities of aether... There's out connections; What was the first thing Thordan did as God-King? No, not off Lahabrea just as he was becoming interesting. He forged the Ascalon... A sword capable of absorbing and channeling nigh limitless quantities of aether... Pretty similar to Tupsimati in that regard...

We also don't actually know what is motivating Elidibus to "help" us with the Triad. I know they're not a hive mind, but not a single one of them has ever given me reason to trust them in the slightest; Manipulating people from the shadows is their game. Urianger rightly says that we're ignorant in all this, but lets not forget why we're ignorant; The Ascians have facilitated seven Calamities, six of which eventually lead to the downfall of civilization (whether the seventh will is yet to be seen). We're ignorant because the Ascians keep hitting the reset button on human civilization. These aren't the actions of people who want to help us, they're the actions of people who want to manipulate us. Put people in a situation where they have no other source of information, and they have to go along with whatever "truth" you spout. Elidibus apparently knows the truth, and hasn't told us. He wants to stop the Triad, but he hasn't told us why... Seeing a pattern in his behavior? He keeps us entirely in the dark, but offers just enough information to have us listening to him. Why? So he can undo the mountain of sh*t Ascians have done over the eras by pulling an "Everybody lives!" scenario out of his robe? Hell no, just like Lahabrea let us forge the Blessing of Light so he could unleash Ultima on Hydaelyn, just as planned, Elidibus is likely just playing us.

Not that it's impossible for the Triad and Garleans to be an issue for Elidibus as well, it's just the organization, and the individual, have given me no reason to place trust in either. Thordan was smart in that regard, at least. Lahabrea was obviously playing him; "Hey, this Primal power will help you win your war and any future wars! I have no ulterior motive in giving you this strength, you can trust me!", but Thordan saw through it and turned on Lahabrea the moment he got what he needed (a means to end conflict). Where I perhaps place trust in the Triad being an issue for Elidibus comes entirely from what he has said in monologue (or to Derplander, not sure). Lahabrea failed and now he has to clean up the mess... The whole plot seemed to hinge on Lahabrea succeeding, and Elidibus supported Lahabrea to that end. Plan failed though, and now something dangerous might get out. The entire Triad plot seems to center on the concept of absorbing the Triad; We stopped Bismarck and Ravana because they were apparently working towards that goal in Thordans wake. Why did we have to wake Sephirot up and fight him right away? Because the two others would still be sleeping and in prime position for absorbing, what is the extreme version? An Allagan training simulation based on "What if Sephirot got more powerful, by perhaps absorbing another Triad member". I could see all this being of concern for Elidibus, especially seeing as Thordan could swat away Ascians like it was nothing. Do I think his goals align with ours in the slightest, though? No, not yet and likely not ever. If this isn't some ridiculous plot (like having Kidibus/Regula absorb the Triad to become the next unwitting Thordan), then I find it more likely that it's just a matter of self preservation. Lock two sworn enemies in a room with a hungry tiger in a cage that's clearly about to fall apart, and they'll work together to deal with the common threat, but they're still sworn enemies.

Elidibus doesn't want Hydaelyn gone, it's bad because then he can't have his balance.

Can you quote where this is said, or even implied? Recently he has gone on about "the fate of this star" a lot, but that really doesn't imply "I want Hydaelyn to live!" to me... It's fairly neutral really, were it not for his history... His talk of balance was also direct at us, not some grand cosmic scale between Light and Dark, not to mention it's seemingly an entirely warped point of view; "They didn't die! We need to restore balance! We can't have someone this capable at stopping us! We might actually have to communicate with them properly if that's the case!". Balance would be the old unstoppable object/unmovable object thing, which is far from the current state of affairs... They've essentially taken us for a ride this entire time (something Hydaelyn backs up, claiming to have failed seven times), and we just start pushing back and that's throwing balance out of whack? No, we're pushing towards balance, but naturally the ones with all the power don't like that... The "balance" Elidibus speaks of really doesn't seem like anything other than the "We've had all the power up till now, we can't have them upsetting that now!" kind, rather than the equality kind... The Isles of Val are just straight up gone, seemingly on a whim... Elidibus can hold onto is "but balance!" card for when I'm able to turn the Sea of Tranquility into a black void for shits and giggles...

So while we most certainly have no choice but to fight whatever horrible fate awaits us, if it's written down in any detail our struggle against it could very well be as well, barring the existence of some loophole that Eldibus almost surely seeks to exploit. Hell, even if he does simply want to take over the world for himself, there has to be a world left for him to take over.

Eh, I've been speculating that the Ascians are simply against death as a concept. There used to be no death, then Hydaelyn did her thang and death became a thing, and that scared the crap out of them, so they resisted Hydaelyn and seek to return things to how they were. As mortals though, we need death. We're incompatible with their world, so they can kill us by the millions. Echo users can perhaps overcome that, explain the whole "We'd be of one mind" thing. I don't think he wants to rule the world, he merely wants a world that doesn't have an expiration date. He is "of this world" after all, at one point he probably had friends and family, and they probably all died while he remained... Why care about people who'll just die? Wouldn't a world where nobodies dies be better? Well no, I don't think it would... Immortality is a curse I wouldn't wish on anyone...

Again, I see this heading towards a FFVI conclusion...

[CyrilLucifer]

It's the combination of two quotes.

First, look at Lahabrea in the ARF. We even have a quest named after his very quote. The very quest you save Minfilia during, even.

What is Lahabrea referring to, when he says that he he seeks the "return to as it once was?" A time when all of the "reflections" didn't exist (hence the purpose of rejoining, to destroy them), before any barriers existed in the first place for the Ascians to destroy?

We have the answer from Hydaelyn herself! She was kind enough to grace us with this answer, if no others:

Before there was life, in the depths of the aetherial sea, Light and Dark did once dwell as one.

If you want more specific quotes, I believe the first few pages have the translation of the non-English lines where Hydaelyn specifies even more the above about Rejoinings, barriers, and reflections. The Rejoining is not the destruction of Hydaelyn, but the destruction of alternate worlds/planes so that Zodiark can regain what was taken from him. Hence, "the star we did cry out, and barriers 'twixt planes chance to shatter." We have a Midgardsormr situation here with the English version being pretty vague and non-English being more specific. If you'd like I'll find the quotes for you.


On this subject, I'm actually wondering if we're the 'original' plane at all. We might have a FFXI thing going on here and we're not the original plane. I don't think Hydaelyn ever called ours the original, did she? Since there should be 1 original + 13 reflections.

I don't think he wants Hydaelyn to continue living I think he wants her to continue existing. Because you can't return to as it once was, as it ever should have remained unless you have both parts of the whole that make up the initial equation of the universe.

That being said, the initial state of the universe may or not be conductive for life, as it seems life was created after it. We can't make any assumptions about what happens after. However, from putting Lahabrea's quote and Hydaelyn's admission together, we can tell that is their purpose: to return to when Light and Dark did once dwell as one - but you can't be one when the light part of the equation is gone; 1+0 will never be 2.

[Nalien]

See, I'm fairly dubious as to what their goal even is at that point... Return things to when Light and Dark were as one? Well, Hydaelyn could always have lied to us, but Zodiark was the aggressor before all this... He coveted power, he upset the balance and "forced" Hydaelyn to banish him and sunder reality... Given how they clearly view Zodiark in a much better light than Hydaelyn, what's the goal here? How is this about balance when they're seeking to restore the one who originally upset that balance? They want to "revive the one true god", not "restore balance between the two true gods".

[CyrilLucifer]

I think that's the point. The revival of their God is the final goal, but that requires the destruction of all of the barriers/reflections surrounding Hydaelyn's "Source," via Hydaelyn herself.

Zodiark longeth to be made whole. For His resurrection, for His restoration, his servants labor without cease.

By destroying these barriers to revive their God, the side effect is that Zodiark will be 'made whole,' returning to as it once was, as it ever should have remained, his connection to the Source (which Hydaelyn seems to have full control over at the moment) restored. Or maybe it's the opposite, as I believe Lahabrea seems to be implying - becoming 'whole' will revive their God, as a side effect. Same result either way, details details.

Now, again, once that happens and Zodiark returns to become "whole" with the Source, I don't think anyone can make any predictions. Will life cease to exist? Can we go about our daily business with 'the Source' restored? I have no idea.

Maybe I misinterpreted it, but to me, what seems to hurt Hydaelyn most is the destruction of her children over the reflections. Those are still lives, those are still individuals destroyed.

(Also, whenever I discuss destroying reflections, Tales of Xillia 2 is always brought to mind and how we destroy millions of 'fake' worlds filled with our friends and individuals in order to preserve one. Anyone else?)

[Morningstar1337]

(Also, whenever I discuss destroying reflections, Tales of Xillia 2 is always brought to mind and how we destroy millions of 'fake' worlds filled with our friends and individuals in order to preserve one. Anyone else?)

That was also the first thing that came to mind when I got to that plot point