Are there more tanks playing now?

[Adire]

....

I didn't give a "theory", I gave you an answer to your question in the context it was given. I have not said once that they do things differently rotationwise for optimal play, only that one is more punishing of mistakes due to CD importance and the numbers gap being wider, and as it a result it is more challenging but rewarding. You're the one who randomly brought up CD rotations being different, even though I said nothing about that. You asked what STR tanks HAVE to do that VIT tanks don't HAVE to do, well, STR tanks have to micromanage more carefully for bigger reward and safe play. That's your proof right there, as STR tanks have to be more careful than VIT tanks in everything they do.

As someone mentioned before, sometimes a STR tank will have to pop a cooldown that a VIT tank wouldn't have had to pop for example for whatever reason. An example you said isn't an example for some mysterious reason. Even though in non-raid content specifically, it is quite true.

I won't disagree with you in your second statement about judging rotation based on max output for gear, but you're very naive if you think stat choice judgement didn't have a place in 3.1, as they very well did. Judging by your previous post, you do think that. A STR tank could tank and DPS extremely efficiently with extra effort (having to micromanage choices more), while a VIT tank could only tank efficiently. That's a cold hard fact.

This statement right here:

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear.

....is completely false as a result. A VIT tank could play perfectly optimally rotationwise with regards to DPS and still come up short vs a STR tank making mistakes. You are terribly underestimating the damage influence STR had over VIT.

You can tell yourself that tight cooldown usage for STR tanks wasn't any more important than it was for VIT tanks, but it won't make it true.

[RocheKat]

"I have enough HP now so I don't have to worry about cooldowns."

I bet your healers love you.

[Reynhart]

Ok, so they rotate their cooldown the same way...but they need to use them more carefully...
Let's ignore that it's a bit contradictory.

So, a VIT tank wouldn't need a CD, where a STR tank would. But, why would the VIT not use it ? Does it need for latter ? For a time where the STR tank wouldn't need it ? Or is it just lazyness from the VIT tank that should still use it, even if he can survive without it ? If it's that, yes, I agree, a good tank will use its CD more carefully than a bad tank.

I'm not underestimating the effect of STR, it's just far less meaningful than knowing how to play. It's easy to see garbage DPS even with good gear. As for tanks, if you don't know how to play, you'll die, again, whatever you wear. Especially because maxing DPS means reducing your mitigation.

"I have enough HP now so I don't have to worry about cooldowns."
I bet your healers love you.

Is that for me ?

[Seku]

Doesn't change the fact that lower hp means you're on a tighter HP budget though.

And this doesn't change the fact that VIT tanks prior to 3.2 had to use their cool downs at the same times as STR tanks. Which is what Reyn is arguing, where in any content would a STR Tank need to use their defensive cool downs differently than a VIT tank? Where would a Paladin need to use Rampart as a VIT tank and then where would they need to use it as a STR tank?

Because if there is no difference, and they used them at the same time, then that "extra budget" of HP you shaved off in exchange for DPS was for the healer, as that would have given them some extra time before you dropped dead on the ground. As no amount of "skill" (timing of your cool downs) is going to save you if your healer is slow on bringing your HP back up.

Now though all Tanks do less damage, are expected to sit in Tank stance and let everyone else do all the work while they soak hits which can be pretty boring. In effect both Warrior and Dark Knight were nerfed but PLD is pretty much "Well I can't miss what I never really had".

Depends on the content and how hard the boss is hitting. Nothing is stopping any tank from maxing out their dps. If anything a lot of people are sore because we're not pushing out the same amount of damage anymore, which really doesn't make a difference currently since DPS checks have been considerably lowered to compensate for our lack of damage. -- The only real thing we're missing is the illusion of choice.

[Adire]

And this doesn't change the fact that VIT tanks prior to 3.2 had to use their cool downs at the same times as STR tanks. Which is what Reyn is arguing, where in any content would a STR Tank need to use their defensive cool downs differently than a VIT tank? Where would a Paladin need to use Rampart as a VIT tank and then where would they need to use it as a STR tank?

Once again, there's no need for him to argue that. I already said I agree with that, the optimal rotation is identical for both.

Look at his original quote in the context it was in though. That's not what he was originally saying, he only brought up rotations afterwards.

Is that for me ?

I honestly don't know who that's for....since no one at all is saying VIT tanks should neglect their cooldowns.

[Reynhart]

I already said I agree with that, the optimal rotation is identical for both.

That's exactly what I don't understand.
You agree that the optimal rotation is the same for both types of tanks, but you're also saying that STR tanks need to use them more carefully.
How can both of those things be true at the same time, since "more carefully" automatically means "not in the same way" ?

That's why I'd like a real example to show this. I'm not saying that it's wrong, I'm just saying that I don't see where is the difference...except if you take a tank that neglect its cooldown because he have much more HP, a thing that neither of us advocate for

[Adire]

snip

There's less room for error for STR tanks is what I'm saying. A VIT tank making DPS errors won't be as noticeable as a STR tank making DPS errors, and a VIT tank making CD errors won't be as noticeable as a STR tank making CD errors.

This discussion started as a result of someone saying STR tanking was easy mode, and I'm starting to think our debate was really just the product of misunderstanding :P

I said more carefully because improper play punishes STR tanks more than it punishes VIT tanks, especially in regards to cooldown usage. Punishing things happening when errors happen is a sign of something being difficult, which was my argument against the person saying STR tanking was easy mode.

[azlewood]

gave up my tank class, the nerf hurts to much, i made NIN my main

[Reynhart]

Punishing things happening when errors happen is a sign of something being difficult, which was my argument against the person saying STR tanking was easy mode.

So, yeah, we're saying the same thing for quite a while, now

What is true, is that a VIT tank have more rooms for errors, but it's still errors.

Something I'll keep, though, is that, considering two tanks that play both perfectly withtout focusing on the same stat, the HP budget was something that your healer hade to manage. His errors were also more punishing when your wore STR.

[FallenWings]

I honestly just feel that a tank's value is diminished with the 20% contribution nerf. It's not about "just doing damage, go play a DPS class" but the value you get from playing a class. Your worth as x class. I enjoy that now 4 of my skills have gained worth and consideration once more (Defiance, Unchained, Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone) as opposed to before where it was "Deliverance or go home noob"(ironically preached alot by yours truly). But once again, tanking and or healing is really just a mini-game that those roles have to do while actually contributing with damage. Excessive skill at those mini-games mean jack squat unless they mean more DPS.
Big HP numbers means nothing if your HP bar % still moves the same.

Nothing feels as rewarding as knowing you're wanted and your actions play an integral part to the completion of the fight.

This is why OT and/or OH suck onions. An OT can really be summed up as "gimped DPS for forced Tank Swap/Stacking Damage Mechanic/Tethered Adds". With the concept of MT and OT, a tank player is experiencing 100% of his role when he is MT and 50% of his role when he is OT. Nothing feels worse when you're really not worth that much and if and when the opportunity inevitably arises, you will be benched for another DPS. If you're being optimal anyways. You gain the effects of Lower Blows. Now I get how PLDs feel when getting replaced by WAR/DRK.

At the very least with the previous ratios people weren't quick to consider replacing you and I can't believe I'm saying this but, the ill informed wouldn't even consider it since we were "pretty much DPS classes but tankier."

Now I know what you're gonna say, "but Fallen, didn't you see that 7war thordan?!?!?!1111!"

Just because something was viable does not make make it suddenly optimal. By any stretch of the imagination. You gain the effects of Lower Blows. Take PLD+DRK for example.

A raid comp of 7 wars doing a collective of 7k raid dps is not better than your standard optimal setup of war drk healer sch 4 dps doing 8.5k. You literally lost another player's worth of contribution for an excessive safety net.

The moment a BCOB/SCOB(the umbral era of being a tank player) like fight arises wherein there is no Forced Tank Swap/Unmanageable Increased Damage Taken/Tethered adds. Your static is going to turn to your OT and ask if they have a DPS class levelled. Feels like broccoli when you can't play the class you main as. You gain the effects of Lower Blows. Feels like maining a PLD y'know?

Edit: Might be off topic but for what it's worth

What I took from the patch and what I think people should consider rather than just be salty purely because of damage nerf
Pros:
- Vit vs Str garbage is gone. Less stupid shitake mushrooms like "letting fending accessories hit the floor" *vomit*
- Enmity and Tank Stance mean something! Yay new skills! Defiance? OPOPOP (Grit still sucks though)
- Improved Skill floor and Skill ceiling

Cons:
- Diminishing Tank role value
- Nerfs
- Unfortunate Warrior niche advantages amplified into serious balance problem with the changes. (Enmity out of Tank Stance, RoH and PS vs BB)

In retrospect, excellent DPS players has become more valuable with the lenient DPS checks. So much more bonus DPS.