All tanks have lost about 30% of their damage in PvP post 3.2 (estimate)

[Atreus]

Firstly, the first quote that you're taking out of context was referring directly to War's ability to upkeep their primary Dps (Butcher's Block, Fell Cleaves, etc) while having a target stun locked.

Yea except that's not what you said in the slightest. Hell you even underlined it lol. Furthermore that section of your essay was never addressed by anyone, so gg getting super defensive.

Oh I read the exchange. Cyrnic was pretty on the money on everything except the 30-second thing, but you kept trying to argue it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It took Nel stating the correct time but it appears to have gone ignored. Aaaalso if one target resists, you move to another that doesn't.

While stunlocking one person might be a similar comparison you're looking at 4+ targets to take away from the fight for a max of 9 seconds at a time per player. Holmgang can't match that

Nael'd it.

[Februs]

Yea except that's not what you said in the slightest. Hell you even underlined it lol.

Ohhhh ... you mean this part right here?

Pld's cannot contribute to dps while stunlocking a target.

You know, that part of the quote which almost immediately followed this statement right here:

The only advantage Pld stuns have over War's is in their freedom of use, but even that comes at a cost and is conditional.

Yup. Funny how it seems like Crynic and I both agreed on that, considering we both said the same thing about it ... That's just weird, right? Maybe it's because it wasn't an argument, so much as a discussion on traded utility between War's and Pld's? You don't suppose that's the case? No, of course not. That can't be. You read the whole thing and clearly understood all the common ground. That's why you brought it up in the first place, right? /sarcasm

To be fair to you, in regards to the first out of context quote you are clinging to, I'll admit that it is a bit of an overstatement. I suppose the quote would have been completely fine by your standards if I had written: "Pld's cannot contribute to dps while stunlocking a target, except for oGCD's." That would have been more acceptable for you, right? Oh, here's an idea, perhaps I could have added in the combined potency of a War's full Fell Cleave burst combo and compared it to those Pld oGCD's as well. That way the statement could have been perfectly clear at illustrating the difference between the two. That would have been good, right? Well, I have to apologize for not doing that, then. I honestly did not think that I would have to go into that much fine detail to explain that there is a massive difference in Pld and War Stun locking dps. That's probably because I honestly did not think that anyone would misunderstand this dramatically. Wonders never cease, I guess.

This is the last response you'll be getting out of me, just fyi. You've made it fairly clear that you're trolling pretty hard, and I probably shouldn't have nibbled on the bait as much as I already have, considering the conversation was settled quite a long time ago. If you want to insist on continuing to misread and misinterpret the previous conversation and then bring up points that have already been well and settled, then feel free to do so. That's your prerogative. Have fun.

Nael'd it.

This was a pretty funny pun though. Honestly made me chuckle.

[SainCheese]

Since when is butchers block a dps rotation for warrior, Februs? I've been doing it wrong the whole time?! My life is a lie! Time to reroll and play as some summoner's egi!

[Februs]

Since when is butchers block a dps rotation for warrior, Februs? I've been doing it wrong the whole time?! My life is a lie! Time to reroll and play as some summoner's egi!

Um ... Since forever?

Heavy Swing (150) + Maim (190) + Storms Path (250) Combined Potency of 590

Heavy Swing (150) + Maim (190) + Storms Eye (270) Combined Potency of 610

Heavy Swing (150) + Skull Sunder (200) + Butcher's Block (280) Combined potency of 630

After applying both Maim and Storms Eye, the highest potency combo that War's have is Butcher's Block. I don't play a lot of War, personally, but their typical dps OT rotation should look something like this:

Vengeance + RI -> Heavy Swing -> Brutal Swing -> Maim -> Internal Release + Berserk -> Storms Eye -> Pot -> Fracture -> Heavy Swing -> Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Fell Cleave -> Maim -> Storms Eye -> Brutal Swing -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butchers Block

I took this right off the Tank forums, in case you were wondering. There's also a rotation that has triple Fell Cleaves by using an additional Butcher's Block combo for even more dmg, but you have to time your opening a lot more carefully. It's a pain in the ass, so I don't think a lot of War's go for that one. The point is that, after your initial Fell Cleave burst rotation, BB is rotated regularly as part of the War OT Dps rotation. So long as Maim and Storm's Eye is up and Infuriate is down, BB is a potency gain over Storms Eye / Path.

This is actually why there was a lot of griping about tank enmity after 3.0. It doesn't make a difference in PvP, obviously, but in PvE War's could strip aggro off of Pld's and Drk's while in the OT spot because their highest potency OT rotation uses an enmity combo for Dps. Pld's and Drk's were being forced to nerf their own Dps by using RoH or Power Slash more frequently (instead of Royal Authority or Delirium Blade/ DA-Soul Eater) just to hold hate. The complaints were massive, hence the changes to enmity and the dmg calculation.

That said, if we're talking explicitly about PvP, then the BB combo is probably used a lot less. The target is likely dead by the time your second Fell Cleave goes off, and if they're not, they're trying to run the heck away, so War's don't have quite the same freedom to execute their full Dps rotation as they do in PvE.

If you know a better way of rotating a War burst (especially in PvP), please let me know. I'm not as experienced at War, so I'm open to any suggestions on how I can maximize my Dps and utility on that job.

[SainCheese]

Seeing how this is a pvp forum, I assumed I wouldn't see any PvE scrubstuff in here! Please, take what you know about PvE, your savage clears and all, and remove those from your brain as long as we're talkin PvP!

All right young padawan, pull up a seat and let me teach ya!

It's not about the rotation! Each combat scenario can vary differently inside PvP. That's why so many people have a hard time picking it up. There are no patterns, just small subtle hints you gotta capitalize on!

1. Don't use butchers inside pvp! It never pays off. If you're ever in a scenario where you're a able to pull off the PvE rotation inside PvP, then the other guy is doing something horribly wrong. You'll find that maim rotation is all you ever need for PvP and 90% of the time it will be for storms eye! Buff your other tanks and ninjas with that slashing debuff! And you can say "but the potency on butchers is more.." and I'll say to you, "So all ninja's should use Sneak Attack over Trick Attack?" "Well ain't that cute... But it's wrong!" (quote from Two Stupid Dogs, kids cartoon way back when.)

Simply put, PvP is about burst, not sustainability, which is why sooooo many people cryed about WAR prior to 3.2 War did, and still does to a degree (all though harshly crippled) have good burst.


So with no further wait, I produce to you, my "use to nuke all classes" burst. I'll break it down step by step too.

Heavy swing, because it's the start of great things.

Holmgang, preferably at that persons six so they can't hit you. This is also to bait out purifies.

Purify, get out of your own holmgang to keep mobility. and move to the opponents six if not already in place

Here is where the scenario can change rapidly.

When holmgang goes off 8 time out of 10 somebody will purify it immediately. If they don't they either don't have purify up... but I assume everybody does, or they're a cocky healer that thinks "oh I can just heal through this." either or I'll split this as two.

scenario 1: Purify is popped.

Opponent does purify, you then

Brutal swing, to immediately cc them

Maim, get that buff!

Full swing for 10% dmg increase

Infuriate, get the stacks max.

Pop Sprint!

Mithril Tempest, to continue to keep them locked up.

Fell cleave

Mercy stroke, (should be GG)
But if for some reason they're still alive after the mercy, do NOT use storms eye. The animation takes forever, heavy swing and maim, hit way faster.

This whole rotation happens in about 4-5 seconds. and it's worked very well prior to 3.2

Now it can still work but honestly im trying to revise and do something better. It's like relearnin pvp all over again :/


Sencario 2: No purify is popped! OH MY

maim, get that buff!

full swing, mooooor poooooowwweeeeer

storms eye, POOOOOWWWWWEEEEEEEERR

Brutal swing, (holmgang should of just or is about to drop)

Inner Beast, get dem stacks.

Pop sprint!

Mithril Tempest,

Fell cleave

Mercy stroke, walk away like a boss. Or pop a realm reborn, whatever your fancy is.

So you see, PvE can suck on its thumb while us big boys do big boi stuff in PvP.

[Houston009]

snip

This is meant to be a joke, right? 'Cuz I'm in tears.

[Februs]

Seeing how this is a pvp forum, I assumed I wouldn't see any PvE scrubstuff in here!

Well, keep in mind that you simply said "dps rotation," in which case I provided one with a pretty hefty burst lol. You're right that this is PvP specific, though. So I should have tuned it accordingly. I did say that BB gets less use in PvP, so your rotations aren't all that surprising to me ... Though, I have to admit that I was surprised you don't use Storms Eye more frequently (for the sake of Party Dps / Abandon stacks whenever Holmgang is not available). I'm also surprised to see you use Mythril Tempest before your FC burst. I would have thought that it gets in the way at that point, as it could potentially knock your target out of your Fell Cleave range and let them escape.

In PvP, I definitely do things differently on the (very rare) occasions that I play as War. I don't follow the PvE rotation to the letter, but I still prep for double Fell Cleave bursts. It tends to look something like this for me:

Assuming I'm going in without any stacks and all CD's are up:

Vengeance + [Raw Intuition + Awareness]* -> HS -> Internal Release -> Maim -> Brutal Swing* -> Berserk-> Storms Eye -> Holmgang -> (if not purified) Full Swing -> Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Fell Cleave -> Mercy Stroke -> Mythril Tempest*

* Used to pre-prep for 2 stacks, but it is gutsy because it leaves you vulnerable for 5 seconds to crits.
* Hopefully baits an early purify here, but if not it's no big deal.
* Used both as a finisher, if needed, as well as a way to get any flies off my back while I pull out. If I neither need a finisher, nor am being attacked, I will save it for utility (such as healer / node defense), rather than burn it here.

Now, if the target purifies Holmgang, then a slight adjustment is needed:

->Storms Eye -> Holmgang -> Full Swing -> Purify + Sprint (to chase) -> Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Fell Cleave -> Mercy Stroke -> Mythril Tempest.

If Holmgang is not up, I tend to save my burst. I'll avoid using Vengeance, Raw Intuition (especially Raw Intuition) and Full Swing, unless I think they are needed for Party utility or if I think I'll have the upper hand. Otherwise, it's all about the prep-work for me. I'll spend most of my CD downtime applying Storm's Eye across as many targets as I can, for the benefit of the team, or rotating between Storms Eye and Butchers Block on the same target to max my Dps (if they are kind enough to let me chase them around that long). Even if I don't kill them, it has the added bonus of keeping enemy healers and casters occupied (assuming my own healer is kind enough to watch my back). I'll do this to pre-prep my next Fell Cleave in anticipation for my next burst, which will happen without a Holmgang, due to its long timer. My secondary burst doesn't have the same lock-down potential as my first (can use Brutal Swing, but Holm is out of the question), however it does allow for a double Fell Cleave, so long as I've been keeping up with Storms eyes and BB's.

This seems to work out pretty well for me, but I'll definitely give yours a try next time I run as War and see which way I like better.

[Synestra]

I'm also surprised to see you use Mythril Tempest before your FC burst.

Its good extra stun depending where you are fighting, if theres a rock or wall next to opponent then KB wont toss him too far. If on openfield i wouldnt suggest to use it for this purpose.

[SainCheese]

It's not about the rotation! Each combat scenario can vary differently inside PvP. That's why so many people have a hard time picking it up. There are no patterns, just small subtle hints you gotta capitalize on!

I can't stress that enough! I like how everyone's feedback was different too. Straigus thought it was a joke, you (Februs) offered your own preference and Nel saw the possibilities. That's what makes PvP so grand!

But in the end, what truly matters is: What works for you? Do you have fun doing it?

My fellow Behemoth teammates and I have proven ourselves over and over with a very aggressive play style. Our Skype chat is filled with "OOOH FU*K!" "GDI WHERE ARE YOU CHEESE, WHERE ARE YOU SHALUA?!" "GET HIM GET HIM GET HIM!" "REMEMBER ME!"

The perfect example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvWgwOU8wk

I only wish I could have edited our skype chat into the vid too.

The best part about it is we laugh and enjoy every second of it and I hope in the end, you all do too.

I still think the tank change is garbage tho. ;-;