All tanks have lost about 30% of their damage in PvP post 3.2 (estimate)

[Dimitrii]

we doing the thing?

Hmm perhaps I should have wrote the following in italics to make the sarcasm more discernible

You want me to 1v1 your friend? Sure, tell him to stand unhidden in front of Mael spawn lmao.

Cause right there I just told your friend to do the FFXIV PVP equivalent of telling someone to wait for them by standing on the tracks of an active railroad track. As in you can die by that oncoming train coming at you while waiting for me cause no, I am not gonna go through the effort of trying for god knows how long to coax the game into placing me in the same lobby as you just to fight a NIN I've probably already run into and killed dozens of times before (and vice versa). Even if we were to synchronize our queue through voice chat or whatever that still doesnt guarentee we will be placed in the same lobby. I'm sure I'll run into him eventually but its not gonna be because I'm actively looking for him fk that.

Please prove my baseless claims wrong.

Go to the site Februs linked earlier, sort by data center and job and bam there you go. The guy statistically speaking isnt even the best NIN in his own GC let alone the data center for the past week. Even if you discount the NIN's with less than 20 matches as well as that Nin up top who's numbers are obviously skewed due to the presence of the two pocket slaves he carries with him, there's still at least 2 other nins ranked higher than him who solo queue. This is even discounting the fact that this Ninja prodigy of yours queues with a sch himself for at least a third of his matches. I'm not saying he's a bad nin but calling him the best in the data center is baseless. And how exactly do you hope to prove his supposed title of best nin in the data center when my pvp main is drg and not nin anyway?

[Pibz]

It was a good decision, tanks easily matching DPS classes raw values was silly, though SE should plan some adjustments to utility, specially DRK and WAR to make them realize this role further.

[AshenStar]

Thread got derailed by kids epeen waving... Sigh.

[Zalestra]

If warrior is actually useless in Feast like I am predicting I will continue to bitch in this thread. Until then, I shall hold my tongue. Here's to hoping that I am wrong. :/

[Soular]

If WAR/DRK end up being more harmful than helpful in comparison to PLD due to this, maybe something will change.

I don't think it'll happen, but we haven't seen what The Feast is going to be like yet. Can't really base much other than raw number data in FL.
As it stands right now though, I'm betting on PLD to be the go-to tank for The Feast; simply for utility, especially with the changes to Clemency and Divine Veil.

[Februs]

If WAR/DRK end up being more harmful than helpful in comparison to PLD due to this, maybe something will change ...

As it stands right now though, I'm betting on PLD to be the go-to tank for The Feast; simply for utility, especially with the changes to Clemency and Divine Veil.

I doubt this.

From a utility stand point, yes, Pld's are looking good, but they really shouldn't be any better off than the other two. You have to keep in mind that most of Pld's utility is tied behind obnoxiously long CD timers. It's not like they can DV/Testudo/cover the team whenever they feel like it. They have to decide when and where their abilities will be useful. Clemency might piss a few people off, but they can only use that 3 times (4 with stretch mp) before they run dry. They also have no way to Sure Cast.

Further, their PvP kit is very similar to the other two tanks. In the case of War's, it's almost identical (Testudo = Thrill of war. Glory Slash + Mythril Tempest. Full Swing = Full Swing. Push Back = Push Back), only Pld's fall behind in Dps. They were also hit with the dmg nerf. Even with the potency buffs they received to GB and RA, their new Dps numbers are on par, if not lower, than what it was before the patch (a lot of Pld's are very pissed about this over on the Tank forums). So, they won't be contributing to the kill count any more than the other two tanks.

All things considered, the three tanks should be fairly equal now in terms of utility in Feast. The only problem will be learning how to play for party utility rather than Dps. Seasoned Pld's will have a slight advantage here, since they'll be used to it. Their dmg always sucked, so Pld's only ever played for party utility. War's who were around during the Secure days will probably get back on the bicycle pretty quickly too, because, back then, they didn't have the the same Dps and played very similarly to Pld's (utility, rather than kills/Dps). The newer generation of tanks, on the other hand, will probably have a very steep learning curve when Feast comes out. Playing for utility is much more difficult than simply whacking away with mindless Fell Cleaves, so a lot of War's who lack Secure / WD experience will probably fall flat on their faces. The good among them will adapt and get stronger. The bad will cry about their job being broken.

[Zalestra]

^ I disagree with you. PLD has way more utility. You completely ignored protect, stoneskin, and STUN LOCKING (big one here). Warriors cannot stun lock nearly as effectively as PLD can. And I dont know why MP would be an issue, riot blade can get you mp back so? Im not hugely familiar with with PLD so maybe riot blade isnt that good, but its still a way to get mp back.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Tanks should have DPS of Ranged Characters because their damage comes from being in the thick of it. They also need the survivability to get to that person to deal that damage, and they also put themselves in a position to do that.

[jonbo]

I love you guys. Come pop Heavenscrackers with me

[Februs]

^ I disagree with you. PLD has way more utility. You completely ignored protect, stoneskin, and STUN LOCKING (big one here). Warriors cannot stun lock nearly as effectively as PLD can. And I dont know why MP would be an issue, riot blade can get you mp back so? Im not hugely familiar with with PLD so maybe riot blade isnt that good, but its still a way to get mp back.

You're inflating Pld's utility a little.

Firstly, Protect means next to nothing in PvP, and you have a healer for that. By comparison, Stone skin is more useful, but, again, you have a healer for that. The only time Pld brings an advantage in Stone skin casts is in 4 man groups, where the healer might be overtaxed casting heals. However, this is still not a utility advantage. It's just a different utility.

Party utility is not a flat scale where you can just pile all your bricks in one spot and say it's "better" or "worse" than the other pile. Party utility is a sliding scale. The defensive utility that Pld's gain by casting stone skin and clemency is lost in offensive utility. That's huge, because that extra bit of Dps can mean the life or death of a target that your dps team is trying to burn, especially considering Pld's offensive utility. As you said, Pld's traditionally stun lock targets for the Dps to burn it down. That utility is traded each time they stop to cast.

On the topic of Stun-locks, there is not nearly as much utility as you seem to think there is. This has been a much debated topic for a long time in PvP. It was actually debunked ages ago, but people still seem to think that Pld's have an advantage in stun-locking. They don't. Pld's can Shield Bash up to 3 times on a single target (with a diminished PvP setting of 4 seconds with consecutive reductions in duration per stun) for approximately 9 seconds (depending on latency). After that, the target is immune. Warriors can cast Holgmang on a target to bind them for 6 seconds. The CD on Holmgang is 180 seconds, but it can never be resisted via personal immunity. They can also follow up or precede any Holmgang with a Brutal Swing for an additional 3 seconds. That's a total of 9 seconds. War and Pld Stun duration is the same.

Some people claim that War's fall a little short because Purify can cut off Holmgang early, but Purify can also cut a Pld's first stun early as well, so they suffer the same disadvantage. Some say that Pld's have an advantage because Shield Swipe is on the GCD while War's have to wait 180 seconds to use holmgang again, but that's not true either. Once a Pld's stuns are resisted, they are resisted forever. They can not stun that target again unless they die. Meaning it's an all or nothing stun lock. It either works for the kill, or it is wasted. War's stun lock is the exact same, in that regard.

The only advantage Pld stuns have over War's is in their freedom of use, but even that comes at a cost and is conditional. IF a target has it's resistance to stuns reset by dying and re-spawning, and IF the Pld knows the target has been reset, the Pld can, potentially, reapply stuns faster than War's. That said, doing this would require the targets to die faster in order to get them to refresh their resistances. Targets typically do not die faster when they are facing a Pld, because Pld's cannot contribute to dps while stunlocking a target. War's can continue to Dps while a target is Holmganged. Pld's use Shield Bash for a pitiful potency of 110 and can do nothing else. It's up to the Dps to kill the target while it is stunned. So, as much as Pld's might have a very slight advantage in ease of use when it comes to stunning, that utility is traded for Dps, which War's excel at.

TL;DR: Neither Pld's nor War's have greater or weaker utility than the other. They just have different utility. When they are both used effectively, neither is at a tremendous disadvantage.

Ps. Riot Blade does replenish some Mp, but not enough to secure infinite casts. Clemency is a 3rd of a Pld's mp bar, regardless of stats. The reason they can only cast it three times (four with stretch mp) is because it takes 3 to 4 riot blades to make up the cost of ONE cast of clemency. Even if they cut Goring Blade out of their Riot Blade combo, that's 20 seconds or downtime. It's not cost effective to be a reliable support for healers, and is only meant to be used in "oh shit" moments. Hence why most Pld's save their clemency casts for targets who are either about to die, or exclusively for the healer.