Are there more tanks playing now?

[Adire]

....

Umm....it is an answer actually, as Deceptus just explained differently to you.

Before this change, VIT tanks DIDN'T maximize their dps. How can you say they did when they specced for VIT, not STR, in the first place? They could have perhaps still stance danced, but the DPS gain from it would be extremely neglible, especially when you realize that a tank could have specced STR and done the same exact thing. It would be so minor that just staying in tank stance and letting the healers get some extra dps in would be a superior group choice.

A STR tank was more vulnerable without proper, tight cooldown usage than a VIT tank....that was just a fact, I don't know how to say it any differently.

You asked what a STR tank HAS to do more than a VIT tank, and that's your answer. You may not consider it an answer since it doesn't agree with what you believe, but it still is a very appropriate answer.

Also, saying a VIT tank doesn't maximize their dps is actually correct, while saying a STR tank doesn't tank properly is not.

A STR tank properly using cooldowns could survive, and therefore tank properly. A VIT tank would not have been maximizing their dps, as speccing for VIT would already make that impossible. A STR tank can tank and maximize their dps at the same time, while a VIT tank cripples their dps with their stat choice but can also tank.

[Reynhart]

Umm....it is an answer actually, as Deceptus just explained differently to you.

And neither of you could provide a real example. That's why I say it's not an answer.

Before this change, VIT tanks DIDN'T maximize their dps. How can you say they did when they specced for VIT, not STR, in the first place?

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear. And you gain exactly the same rate of damage, again, wether you wear VIT or STR. Missing between 20% and 30% DPS is huge, whatever your number is in the first place.

A STR tank was more vulnerable without proper, tight cooldown usage than a VIT tank....that was just a fact, I don't know how to say it any differently.

Again, since fights are pretty much scripted from start to finish, cooldowns rotation is already determined. So, once again, give me a real example where your CD usage would be different.

[Adire]

Ok, then, tell me what a STR tank have to do more than a VIT tank ?

I answered this question several times already, but I'll do so one more time for you at the bottom of this post.

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear. And you gain exactly the same rate of damage, again, wether you wear VIT or STR. Missing between 20% and 30% DPS is huge, whatever your number is in the first place.

Is that so? So you're essentially saying that a STR tank and a VIT tank doing the same thing wouldn't have much of a difference in DPS prior to this change? That....says a lot about your understanding of things O.o


And I've already answered your original question several times. You asked:

Ok, then, tell me what a STR tank have to do more than a VIT tank ?

Here's my answer once again: A STR tank has to be more careful with CD usage since errors are much more punishing than for a VIT tank. A STR tank has to be more careful with stance dancing. A STR tank drops huge numbers or risks dying more if they mess up stance dancing or cooldown usage because of how much of an influence STR had over VIT on damage and because lower HP leaves less room for damage. If a VIT tank messes up, their damage loss is negligible since their outgoing damage is already extremely low due to speccing VIT anyways, and their survival chances are higher. They can afford to be more loose with their DPS and their cooldowns, because their DPS is already extremely low and not contributing much, especially compared to what a STR tank would be contributing, and because they have higher health to reduce to impact of error.

I never said their optimal rotations are different, so don't try to cop out or manipulate readers into thinking I'm saying something I'm not. Our discussion started about whether STR tanking is easier or more difficult than VIT tanking due to cooldown usage importance for both, and I have given you your answer for that. Don't change the subject.

He asked what STR tanks have to do that VIT tanks don't have to do in reference to me saying to someone that cooldown usage for STR tanks is more important than it is for VIT tanks, and that's the question I debated and answered.

[Reynhart]

I answered this question several times already, but I'll do so one more time for you at the bottom of this post.

No, you still not. You gave a "theory". You still didn't provide a real example, a proof, as STR tank do play differently.
I've looked at a lot of guides for hard content, and not a single time did I see "If you wear VIT, do this, if you wear STR, do that".

Is that so? So you're essentially saying that a STR tank and a VIT tank doing the same thing wouldn't have much of a difference in DPS prior to this change? That....says a lot about your understanding of things O.o

No, I'm saying that if proper rotation and proper stance dancing can increase your DPS by 30%, it will give 30%, whatever you wear. Of course, the actual numbers will be different, but so would they if you have a gap in weapon and armor.
When judging a rotation, we judge how much you do in regards to your maximum output for your gear.

[Adire]

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I didn't give a "theory", I gave you an answer to your question in the context it was given. I have not said once that they do things differently rotationwise for optimal play, only that one is more punishing of mistakes due to CD importance and the numbers gap being wider, and as it a result it is more challenging but rewarding. You're the one who randomly brought up CD rotations being different, even though I said nothing about that. You asked what STR tanks HAVE to do that VIT tanks don't HAVE to do, well, STR tanks have to micromanage more carefully for bigger reward and safe play. That's your proof right there, as STR tanks have to be more careful than VIT tanks in everything they do.

As someone mentioned before, sometimes a STR tank will have to pop a cooldown that a VIT tank wouldn't have had to pop for example for whatever reason. An example you said isn't an example for some mysterious reason. Even though in non-raid content specifically, it is quite true.

I won't disagree with you in your second statement about judging rotation based on max output for gear, but you're very naive if you think stat choice judgement didn't have a place in 3.1, as they very well did. Judging by your previous post, you do think that. A STR tank could tank and DPS extremely efficiently with extra effort (having to micromanage choices more), while a VIT tank could only tank efficiently. That's a cold hard fact.

This statement right here:

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear.

....is completely false as a result. A VIT tank could play perfectly optimally rotationwise with regards to DPS and still come up short vs a STR tank making mistakes. You are terribly underestimating the damage influence STR had over VIT.

You can tell yourself that tight cooldown usage for STR tanks wasn't any more important than it was for VIT tanks, but it won't make it true.

[Reynhart]

Ok, so they rotate their cooldown the same way...but they need to use them more carefully...
Let's ignore that it's a bit contradictory.

So, a VIT tank wouldn't need a CD, where a STR tank would. But, why would the VIT not use it ? Does it need for latter ? For a time where the STR tank wouldn't need it ? Or is it just lazyness from the VIT tank that should still use it, even if he can survive without it ? If it's that, yes, I agree, a good tank will use its CD more carefully than a bad tank.

I'm not underestimating the effect of STR, it's just far less meaningful than knowing how to play. It's easy to see garbage DPS even with good gear. As for tanks, if you don't know how to play, you'll die, again, whatever you wear. Especially because maxing DPS means reducing your mitigation.

"I have enough HP now so I don't have to worry about cooldowns."
I bet your healers love you.

Is that for me ?