is WAR the best MT now?

[Bjorn_Ironside]

Let's not act like nothing's changed. Let's not act uppity and act like this feeling of a nerf is exclusive to lesser players. Just because enmity generation in tank stance has changed to compensate for our 20% damage nerf does not mean enmity generation out of stance has.

ive been playing War since 2.0 so........

what you are saying is. " i cant just dps and keep hate anymore!" you're a tank, your core job is to hold threat for your group not try to push DPS. this way of thinking started with Alex savage having such high DPS needs to clear, since the new savage phases are very mechanically oriented and do not require the massive DPS anymore to clear your statement of "not being able to hold hate outside of tank stance" seems moot. just roll with it and welcome to being a "tank".


just be clear i'm not trying to attack anyone, i'm just tired of hearing every tank i know complain about not being able to "DPS ALL THE THINGS" as effectively anymore. on the subject of the thread....no tank is "the best" you can do all content with all tanks it might just be better to fight X boss with a Drk because it does high magic dmg etc.

[Reynhart]

If only we didn't have an "enmity combo" back in 2.0, none of this debate would have made sense.
A damage combo, some buff/debuff combos, and a really HUGE enmity boost on our tank stance...there, problem solved...as long as tank stances were given to classes at early level.

And it would have made OT as a PLD easier in 2.x since spamming RoH over and over wouldn't have resulted in too you much enmity.

And for DRK, power slash would be the damage combo, Delirium, a debuff combo, and SoulEater a leech combo (With only increased leech under Dark Arts)

[Hierro]

what you are saying is. " i cant just dps and keep hate anymore!" you're a tank, your core job is to hold threat for your group not try to push DPS.

Is it so wrong to want to go that extra mile? Is it so wrong to enjoy pushing out meaningful damage while still holding true and fulfilling your primary duties as tank? What you're basically saying is that every tank should be happy being in tank stance 24/7 while spamming only their aggro combo, because hey, "DATS YER JERB!" Just because you're complacent with never leaving the comfort of tank stance means everyone else should too.

Just for the record, I've been holding hate just fine in deliverance. Usually by the time a DPS starts to creep up on me, unchained becomes available again to use to make the painless switch and re-establish a solid lead.

[HoodRat]

ive been playing War since 2.0 so........

what you are saying is. " i cant just dps and keep hate anymore!" you're a tank, your core job is to hold threat for your group not try to push DPS. this way of thinking started with Alex savage having such high DPS needs to clear,

Except back in 2.x, plenty of tanks were tanking outside of tank stance to increase dps. And if you can increase raid dps without causing an enormous burden on the group, why not?

[Bjorn_Ironside]

Except back in 2.x, plenty of tanks were tanking outside of tank stance to increase dps. And if you can increase raid dps without causing an enormous burden on the group, why not?

i cant remember ever tanking outside of tank stance pre-deliverance. if its no detriment to the group and you are still holding hate just fine i dont have a problem with stance dancing hell i do it sometimes. i guess to put in more simply i'm saying that you cant really complain about them nerfing dps on a none dps job since your primary goal is threat management.

at one point all you had to do was swap into tank stance on a pull establish hate and then swap to dps and you were good to go now you cant really do that anymore and there are so many people complaining about it that it just gets old. in the end we all have our own tanking styles, just because i like to keep my tank stance up and manage my cool down so that my healer can DPS to their little hearts content does not mean its the only way to go about or the "right" way to go about it my OT loves to DPS and ill admit it looks a Little more exciting. lol

i might just be jaded about it now lol i can understand what you are both saying though. also depending on what im doing the comfort of tank stance isn't all that comfortable. lol #tankbustershurtmyface

[Rbstr]

Since when?

It is true that a fending tank would have actually seen a boost in enmity generation with the patch.
Which is funny and useful for your every day roulette kind of stuff.

But for a more serious raider-type tank in strength, they got hit for 15-20% of their attack power, which is a 15-20% enmity nerf. Which ends up being a larger DPS loss, all considered, since you can't stance dance so readily any more.

[Hayward]

ive been playing War since 2.0 so........

what you are saying is. " i cant just dps and keep hate anymore!" you're a tank, your core job is to hold threat for your group not try to push DPS. this way of thinking started with Alex savage having such high DPS needs to clear, since the new savage phases are very mechanically oriented and do not require the massive DPS anymore to clear your statement of "not being able to hold hate outside of tank stance" seems moot. just roll with it and welcome to being a "tank".


just be clear i'm not trying to attack anyone, i'm just tired of hearing every tank i know complain about not being able to "DPS ALL THE THINGS" as effectively anymore. on the subject of the thread....no tank is "the best" you can do all content with all tanks it might just be better to fight X boss with a Drk because it does high magic dmg etc.

^This right here. Tanks need to get out of this whacked-out mentality that their function is to simply do damage. That's a DPS' job and many do it better than you'd like to believe. Besides, it's not as though enmity combo finishers are wet noodles. Even in Shield Oath, Defiance, and Grit/Darkside an enmity finisher can break well past 1,000 HP on regular hits.

In short, ease up on the hyperbole.

[SpookyGhost]

Priority list:

1. Hold hate.
2. Stay alive.
3. Contribute to gDPS.

There are many ways to contribute to gDPS, and they all have their place. There is nothing wrong with stance dancing as long as you're making up for any lost healer DPS as well as maintaining your first two functions. If you see that you could possibly lose hate, then it is well worth the decrease in damage to use your aggro combo to maintain hate. Having a solid opener or having a WAR pull with their ridiculous threat gen opener is a solid way to maintain your first priority easy, and focus on the other 2 more instead.

I think "That's a DPS' job" is a bit silly, though - it is their primary job but we still need to contribute to the overall number to make the boss transition/die faster. Any tank who just cares about priorities 1 and 2 doesn't care about their group succeeding and is just hoping they can get carried through by everyone else putting in the work for them.

That said, contributing to gDPS is your 3rd priority for a reason. Learn how to do 1 and 2 before you even think about 3. In progression it's better to play safe (outside of DPS checks) to see as much as you can and then, once you reach a DPS check or you're hitting enrage, you can look into how you want to contribute to DPS. You can work this in along the way as well, pull by pull, but make absolutely sure you're able to live and hold hate before you do.

[Reynhart]

Is it so wrong to want to go that extra mile?

For me, what's wrong with this mentality is that it pushes the game farther and farther from "tanking".

If they keep people in this "more and more DPS mentality", they'll eventually give us more and more DPS. As a result, what will they make to challenge us ? More and more DPS checks...
Following this direction, I'd foresee weaker and weaker creativiy when designing future content...just look at what they did to Midas when they stopped focusing on DPS checks !

That's why countering this mentality right now, why it's still young, is a smart move. Yes, I know people tanked out of tank stance even in 2.x, but it was the exception, not the norm...

[SpookyGhost]

The only way you can stop tanks from thinking about their contribution to gDPS is by literally making all their skills do 0 damage and just have +enmity or +debuff or w/e. I'm fine with them making it harder to stance dance, which they really have (stuff hits like trucks now) but you're never going to get a job that has to actively hit the boss to not think about their DPS... unless you do what I suggested... which would lead to a lot of people not playing tanks most likely.