Pally Is Almost Perfect

[Mirch]

Tempered Will is OP, I always used it during Divebombs (the last one), Cauterize and Megaflare Dive, also during Titan Ex's Sumo kick attack.

[Seku]

I wish PLD was near perfect, but it's not. Probably won't be fixed until 4.0 since they seem to be doing the same thing they did to DRG in 2.x. Minor upgrades to try and make the job ok, but really is still avoided by groups looking for optimization.

[Shurrikhan]

Improved but not fixed, our TP will still hit the floor (now slightly slower) with no way to stop or fix it without halting DPS. We either need a TP restore, or an MP move that deals damage for the TP problem to be fixed, no amount of cost adjustments will fix it.

Mostly agreed, but that last bit is absurd. Cut the costs to 0 and you... never run out of TP. Cut the costs even to 50 across the board on a 2.5 GCD and you will be permanently capped. Of course cost adjustments *can* fix it. They might not be the most creative way to do so, but they are the most straightforward. If Rage of Halone and Royal Authority were changed to 50 TP, you'd be a lot closer to DRK TP longevity (when said DRK isn't using enmity combo frequently).

As you said, a MP attack would help a bit to vary things up, much like DRK has Unmend, but keep in mind that this would then conflict with Oaths and Clemency as they are now.


To me the real issues are the neglected utility abilities, Tempered Will and Cover, and the still maximally clunky Oaths. Clemency itself has taken a fair hit from the tank AP reduction, while it still impossible to block while casting (even though our shields are clearly held in front of us for every cast animation). [Heck, if necessary to meet the next Shelltron timing, I can pop Shelltron early and simply cast to ignore the next 2-3 AAs and take the TB with Shelltron in the last couple seconds...]

I was personally of the opinion that Clemency was already useful... in normal content. And now its spot-support has been improved significantly. I can save more than just the MT now when healers are still up. But by the time Savage comes around, it really hasn't had a notable effect unless, again, healers were jailed or dead. The tank-wide AP debuff has since hit it hard. No more massive crits on Convalescence-Defiance Warriors to save the MT's day. No more securing threat more efficiently than Flash with a single large overheal on a mass-pull.

Cover is still short, slow, only half-effective (physical only), infrequent, and often a better means of suicide than protection. It is almost entirely limited to scripted gimmicks.

Tempered Will is still nearly useless and far too infrequent to warrant its cooldown. It's been placed on the same cooldown as a goddamn death-immunity... and it merely mimics one part of that skill with a side of 'breaks binds and heavies', without even making you immune to either. Immunity throughout, with an attached Surecast, and a two minute cooldown, would go a long way in making this ability worth something.

More than a gap-reduction, from 20% to 15% damage reduction on Shield Oath, what Shield Oath and Sword Oath needed was to figure out what they were actually designed for. At the moment, Sword Oath merely fits the part of a lesser, exclusive, and non-damaging Maim or AA-only Darkside (with double the initial MP cost in exchange for no MP drain, I guess). That is pathetic. Why does it consume a GCD, or alternatively, why does it deal no damage? Why does it cost MP? What possible excuse of flavor can uniquely make this one 'dps stance' have virtually no effect on enmity, AoEs, or DoTs that every other damage buff in this game enjoys? Why are both Oaths unbelievably plain (Sword Oath's uniqueness finding the one sole method to be more boring than a +15% damage buff)? Why have the latter's contribution vary with weapon speed?

[Lambdafish]

Mostly agreed, but that last bit is absurd. Cut the costs to 0 and you... never run out of TP. Cut the costs even to 50 across the board on a 2.5 GCD and you will be permanently capped. Of course cost adjustments *can* fix it. They might not be the most creative way to do so, but they are the most straightforward. If Rage of Halone and Royal Authority were changed to 50 TP, you'd be a lot closer to DRK TP longevity (when said DRK isn't using enmity combo frequently).

I was talking realistically, not literally with that statement. Of course if the TP cost is 0 then we will never run out of TP, in fact, if the combos TP cost is less than the amount it recovers, then we will also never run out of TP. That is why I went under the assumption that the devs would never make the combo do less than in recovered. The problem is that in a raid environment, if they make the adjustments soley to cost, then you make it so that PLD either never runs out of TP, or hits the floor at some point, there is no strategy, its either inevitability, or TP might as well not exist. These are not fixes, and that is what I meant. Also an MP attack would not conflict with oaths and clemency, im not sure why you say that.

[Shurrikhan]

I was talking realistically, not literally with that statement. Of course if the TP cost is 0 then we will never run out of TP, in fact, if the combos TP cost is less than the amount it recovers, then we will also never run out of TP. That is why I went under the assumption that the devs would never make the combo do less than in recovered. The problem is that in a raid environment, if they make the adjustments soley to cost, then you make it so that PLD either never runs out of TP, or hits the floor at some point, there is no strategy, its either inevitability, or TP might as well not exist. These are not fixes, and that is what I meant. Also an MP attack would not conflict with oaths and clemency, im not sure why you say that.

1. Given that there's only one optimal place to use Invigorate, that Equilibrium generally has a greatly preferred stance choice in any given situation, and that Unmend does shit damage, there's not really any class that has this aspect of TP strategy that you seem to be looking for? As it stands, they're all inevitability. And if a Warrior has to pop Equil for healing before or during add phase, then it's a "oh shit" moment, and a diminished inevitability. There's no issue with PLD becoming the first to really manage its TP in interesting ways (if Stoneskin were faster or Clemency stronger, especially, it'd practically be the example of this TP management already), but there's no long line of precedence that PLD's trailing behind here.

2. Any TP adjustment other than reduced TP costs on weaponskills would have nearly identical results overall, without automatically being optomized, likely with unintended consequences. For instance, attaching a TP restore to blocks would flat-line OTs, attaching it to Shelltron would additionally further encourage on-CD usage, attaching it to Spirits Within would mean you have to chose between maximizing TP maintenance or actually silencing correctly and/or hitting for the full potency, and attaching it to Fight or Flight would mean that a 'jump' (enemies non-targetable) phase could not only cost you dps but also TP. Giving PLD an actual Invigorate means you hit it as soon as it won't cap, and then forget about it until it's ready again.

3. Anything that uses MP will conflict with other uses of MP. Try using two Clemency casts after having just blown your MP on this MP-attack. Conflict. Not a huge issue, at all, but it is necessarily a conflict. Moreover, it's probably not going to be the 'alternative' or means for TP management that you think it will be, unless its a weaponskill that is technically inferior to ever TP choice. In which case it also becomes an inevitability, same an Unmend. When all other choices are unavailable, use. That's it.

I don't understand why adding it to sheltron would be an issue, or perhaps add it to say... awareness (as a trait).

Your point with other tanks is true, they might hit the floor, but no other tank is in a situation where they just stand still and do nothing to regenerate the TP, why waste flash? its not doing anything if you have hate, WAR has equilibrium because they used to have this issue, and DRK has lots that it can do with MP that keeps them doing damage.

It would be an issue because it adjusts priorities, or put otherwise, messes with existing gameplay. And it doesn't do so by making TP management a thing; it simply punishes your TP for holding onto your snap-mitigation for a coming tank-buster. That and it again requires MT position and physically attacking enemies. Adding it to Awareness has the same issue; now you're even less likely to maximize its mitigation opportunities because you desperately need it in order to keep up TP.

Upon running out of TP you can still shield someone the other tank for some 2.1k-2.8k, or heal for twice that in the time that you could Flash. It wouldn't be a tough argument to make that that's a better periodic opportunity than Unmend. Flash is also the only opportunity a TP-exhausted Warrior has (after blowing Del-Equil), the only difference being that it hits for more for them when in DPS stance, they can put out far fewer at a time, take much longer to regenerate their cost, and most will avoid equipping the spell altogether, at which point they have no such options at all.

Warrior didn't have TP issues unless AoEing. They were already greatly more TP-efficient than PLD by nature of their free Wrath weaponskills unless the Paladin had enough of an enmity lead to make heavy use of his Shield Swipe (a TP gain but only a 4% DPS gain and an enmity loss at the time). Equilibrium was more an increased opportunity for further AoE than it was a solution for inevitable TP exhaustion. As it stands, the only TP AoEer has the only TP restore. Makes sense.

DRK has only one mana alternative to TP weaponskills, Unmend. As they have no TP AoEs, Unleash is not an alternative.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the idea of adding a damaging mana-costing Weaponskill/Spell for PLD, but let's make sure we have the right reasons for its implementation?

[Edewen]

Im really liking the feel of paladin now. The only thing i would change would be to Clemency.

Clemency.
If casted on yourself, 200 potency heal. *to offset the instant cast buff to not be horribly OP
If casted on others, standard 1000 potency heal. *slight nerf for it being useable more often
Give a buff on royal authority or replace str down on RoH, The next clemency is 50% mp cost and is instant/off gcd.

Frankly, I want to see paladins able to set themselves apart through means of skill. Being able to offheal while tanking and offtanking would provide interesting and unique gameplay.

To offset this utility, Drk could be a kind of debuffer, change delirium to put a debuff on the boss that heals you when you hit it.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I don't understand why adding it to sheltron would be an issue, or perhaps add it to say... awareness (as a trait).

Your point with other tanks is true, they might hit the floor, but no other tank is in a situation where they just stand still and do nothing to regenate the TP, why waste flash? its not doing anything if you have hate, WAR has equilibrium because they used to have this issue, and DRK has lots that it can do with MP that keeps them doing damage.

[Jonnycbad]

2. Tempered Will cool down is way too long. Any time I could use it and feel badass, I can't use it the next two times. For example, to stop the knockback on last boss in Neverreap. Who cares when I can't stop the next two knockbacks! >.<

Tempered Will is extremely powerful and it's the only job that can negate a knockback for the mostpart. This allows the PLD to circumvent an otherwise lethal mechanic (Landslide comes to mind). If this could be used more frequently, it would allow more dodging of lethal mechanics. We don't want PLD to be immune to knockbacks.

3) Why is PLD the only tank that has to burn GCD to switch stances? Isn't it already bad enough that

DRK burns GCD when turning Grit on (but not off), the issue is their DPS stance can be stacked with their tank stance (but the penalty is on their MP). Sword Oath costs no resources to upkeep, unlike DRKs, but it needs to be toggled with their tank stance. So there's pros/cons to this.

4) they have to wait til 40 for their tank stance?

PLD has more damage mitigation at 30-40 than WAR and DRK do (they have a Shield etc). WAR has no real damage mitigation...Forsight is like -6% damage taken when you account for the defense boost...Defiance boosts HP but not damage mitigation. DRK has one cooldown up until 30, but has no Shield.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Burn me for thinking this, but I am not totally against flooring at 4 minutes, this is roughly half of most fights they seem to be kicking out, plus there are enough mechanics/jumps that seem to force natural down time. YES I get that there is a tank that doesn’t have to worry about this issue at all, and the other tank has more …. Edgy things to do when TP floored, but meh. I would honestly like to see it stretched maybe a bit further, but I personally like some flaws to be present. (and now like several others, spamming Clemency as TP management is not the answer)

Cover was completely ignored.

Tempered Will was completely ignored. The main problem with these two being that Pld is the ONLY tank job that has moves that they don't, and often can't, use. That's just plain stupid.

Am I the only one who used “Tempered Will” during ThorEx out of spite?????? Every time I run my PLD out, I seem to press this skill with more venom and spewing disgust than any other skill in the game. Including the fishing ones…

I’d love to see Cover’s range improved, or to add magic damage (not both – cuz imperfections are fun). Course, when I heal, I get covered all the time, and yelled at by melee DD’s because I am standing in their way.

*****
I am going to jump on the bandwagon of keeping SwO on gcd and making ShO off gcd. This puts it as the opposite as DRK(balance). From here, I am not sure what more changes I think PLD needs without knowing SE’s plans for 4.0 and <potential> new skills. *******blinders should be put on here********

When comparing only the dps combos of PLD to DRK, the potency for PLD is higher by 140 (assuming 2 SE combos and 1 DE combo). Believe it or not, it’s a bigger difference in favor of PLD over WAR on this. (end blinders) Of course, we all know it’s the other buttons that DRK/WAR get to mash that do damage where PLD gets left high and dry, just under a 1500 potency difference in favor of DRK (making the total potency difference 1300 ish). This potency split is, frankly, to great a chasm to cross without a complete re-work of the class. I think it would be a little broken if the entire RA combo was juiced to a total of 1k potency AND the Goring combo was bumped by 600. There isn’t really an adjustment that could be made to SwO (beyond getting silly – and looking only at PLD dps ) that could bridge this gap either.

Now if SE decides to add new skills that are damage based for PLD in 4.0, major overhaul to today’s skills or stances c/would make the class ridiculously OP. Go ahead and hold your breath for that one though…..

I would still love to see SE push the class to a more “utility” tank. PLD already has the foundation, it just needs a little bit more, and there is one button I have in mind that could do it. My friend, Tempered Will. Change its name, and add 1 thing: “Increase target’s damage taken by x% for 10s”
Keep it on it’s silly 3 minute cooldown and give the party, I dunno, 15% bonus attack? (somebody maths for me, I’m all out on a Monday)

The class has the makings of being the humble servant of shield, it takes damage for others, it can heal others (now new and improved), give it the ability to INSPIRE others on the battle field. (This completes my childhood vision of what a Paladin is).

[Februs]

Tempered Will is extremely powerful and it's the only job that can negate a knockback for the most part. This allows the PLD to circumvent an otherwise lethal mechanic (Landslide comes to mind). If this could be used more frequently, it would allow more dodging of lethal mechanics. We don't want PLD to be immune to knockbacks.

This if flat out not true.

Firstly, If a move has an AoE cone, you should be dodging it, not negating it via a gimmick move. TW does not mitigate dmg, so eating a hit in the face that you could have dodged is plain silly (and will make your healers hate you for a long time). It can also screw with your party, because your Off Tank might not know that you activated it. If the OT sees you standing in a AoE cone, they could voke the boss from you because they think you're about to take a header off of a cliff. Any tank knows that unplanned vokes tend to cause more trouble then they avoid (in Titan Ex, for example, a voke like this could feed a Mountain Buster to your entire party), so this is not good.

Now, you might think that TW is a good "oh shit" move in case you were too sluggish to dodge, but that's not true either. Like Hallowed Ground, Tempered Will has a delayed effect. The status does not take effect until after the animation is done, so there's about a 1.5 second delay, meaning that you cannot use it as a last ditch effort to avoid getting punted. It has to be used in advance, in anticipation of the knock back, to guarantee success. If you do not have TW up by approximately 75% (depending on personal latency) of the boss's cast bar, or if TW is not up before the AoE indicators disappear, you will still get punted, regardless of what your status bar says.

Secondly (and this is the important bit), TW is not used to intentionally eat knock back mechanics. TW is used to maintain position. Any tank can tell you the importance of keeping a fixed point and not having to move. TW excels at this, that's true, but Pld's are not the only job who can do this.

Warriors can Holmgang a target for the same effect. It's on the same CD as TW (180 seconds) and it has the additional utility of making the War immune to death during it's duration. Drk's can execute a Plunge to re-position themselves instantly after a knock back and maintain optimal positioning. They don't get any additional effects from it (like removal of Heavy, or death immunity), but they do additional dmg and can use Plunge every 30 seconds. Meaning that a Drk can negate ever single knock back in a boss fight to maintain optimal positioning. Further, TW is exclusively used in knock back situations, whereas War's and Drk's can use Holmgang and Plunge in any fight they want and still gain utility out of them. By comparison, TW is WAY behind the curve.