Pally Is Almost Perfect

[Shurrikhan]

Improved but not fixed, our TP will still hit the floor (now slightly slower) with no way to stop or fix it without halting DPS. We either need a TP restore, or an MP move that deals damage for the TP problem to be fixed, no amount of cost adjustments will fix it.

Mostly agreed, but that last bit is absurd. Cut the costs to 0 and you... never run out of TP. Cut the costs even to 50 across the board on a 2.5 GCD and you will be permanently capped. Of course cost adjustments *can* fix it. They might not be the most creative way to do so, but they are the most straightforward. If Rage of Halone and Royal Authority were changed to 50 TP, you'd be a lot closer to DRK TP longevity (when said DRK isn't using enmity combo frequently).

As you said, a MP attack would help a bit to vary things up, much like DRK has Unmend, but keep in mind that this would then conflict with Oaths and Clemency as they are now.


To me the real issues are the neglected utility abilities, Tempered Will and Cover, and the still maximally clunky Oaths. Clemency itself has taken a fair hit from the tank AP reduction, while it still impossible to block while casting (even though our shields are clearly held in front of us for every cast animation). [Heck, if necessary to meet the next Shelltron timing, I can pop Shelltron early and simply cast to ignore the next 2-3 AAs and take the TB with Shelltron in the last couple seconds...]

I was personally of the opinion that Clemency was already useful... in normal content. And now its spot-support has been improved significantly. I can save more than just the MT now when healers are still up. But by the time Savage comes around, it really hasn't had a notable effect unless, again, healers were jailed or dead. The tank-wide AP debuff has since hit it hard. No more massive crits on Convalescence-Defiance Warriors to save the MT's day. No more securing threat more efficiently than Flash with a single large overheal on a mass-pull.

Cover is still short, slow, only half-effective (physical only), infrequent, and often a better means of suicide than protection. It is almost entirely limited to scripted gimmicks.

Tempered Will is still nearly useless and far too infrequent to warrant its cooldown. It's been placed on the same cooldown as a goddamn death-immunity... and it merely mimics one part of that skill with a side of 'breaks binds and heavies', without even making you immune to either. Immunity throughout, with an attached Surecast, and a two minute cooldown, would go a long way in making this ability worth something.

More than a gap-reduction, from 20% to 15% damage reduction on Shield Oath, what Shield Oath and Sword Oath needed was to figure out what they were actually designed for. At the moment, Sword Oath merely fits the part of a lesser, exclusive, and non-damaging Maim or AA-only Darkside (with double the initial MP cost in exchange for no MP drain, I guess). That is pathetic. Why does it consume a GCD, or alternatively, why does it deal no damage? Why does it cost MP? What possible excuse of flavor can uniquely make this one 'dps stance' have virtually no effect on enmity, AoEs, or DoTs that every other damage buff in this game enjoys? Why are both Oaths unbelievably plain (Sword Oath's uniqueness finding the one sole method to be more boring than a +15% damage buff)? Why have the latter's contribution vary with weapon speed?

[Lambdafish]

Mostly agreed, but that last bit is absurd. Cut the costs to 0 and you... never run out of TP. Cut the costs even to 50 across the board on a 2.5 GCD and you will be permanently capped. Of course cost adjustments *can* fix it. They might not be the most creative way to do so, but they are the most straightforward. If Rage of Halone and Royal Authority were changed to 50 TP, you'd be a lot closer to DRK TP longevity (when said DRK isn't using enmity combo frequently).

I was talking realistically, not literally with that statement. Of course if the TP cost is 0 then we will never run out of TP, in fact, if the combos TP cost is less than the amount it recovers, then we will also never run out of TP. That is why I went under the assumption that the devs would never make the combo do less than in recovered. The problem is that in a raid environment, if they make the adjustments soley to cost, then you make it so that PLD either never runs out of TP, or hits the floor at some point, there is no strategy, its either inevitability, or TP might as well not exist. These are not fixes, and that is what I meant. Also an MP attack would not conflict with oaths and clemency, im not sure why you say that.

[Shurrikhan]

I was talking realistically, not literally with that statement. Of course if the TP cost is 0 then we will never run out of TP, in fact, if the combos TP cost is less than the amount it recovers, then we will also never run out of TP. That is why I went under the assumption that the devs would never make the combo do less than in recovered. The problem is that in a raid environment, if they make the adjustments soley to cost, then you make it so that PLD either never runs out of TP, or hits the floor at some point, there is no strategy, its either inevitability, or TP might as well not exist. These are not fixes, and that is what I meant. Also an MP attack would not conflict with oaths and clemency, im not sure why you say that.

1. Given that there's only one optimal place to use Invigorate, that Equilibrium generally has a greatly preferred stance choice in any given situation, and that Unmend does shit damage, there's not really any class that has this aspect of TP strategy that you seem to be looking for? As it stands, they're all inevitability. And if a Warrior has to pop Equil for healing before or during add phase, then it's a "oh shit" moment, and a diminished inevitability. There's no issue with PLD becoming the first to really manage its TP in interesting ways (if Stoneskin were faster or Clemency stronger, especially, it'd practically be the example of this TP management already), but there's no long line of precedence that PLD's trailing behind here.

2. Any TP adjustment other than reduced TP costs on weaponskills would have nearly identical results overall, without automatically being optomized, likely with unintended consequences. For instance, attaching a TP restore to blocks would flat-line OTs, attaching it to Shelltron would additionally further encourage on-CD usage, attaching it to Spirits Within would mean you have to chose between maximizing TP maintenance or actually silencing correctly and/or hitting for the full potency, and attaching it to Fight or Flight would mean that a 'jump' (enemies non-targetable) phase could not only cost you dps but also TP. Giving PLD an actual Invigorate means you hit it as soon as it won't cap, and then forget about it until it's ready again.

3. Anything that uses MP will conflict with other uses of MP. Try using two Clemency casts after having just blown your MP on this MP-attack. Conflict. Not a huge issue, at all, but it is necessarily a conflict. Moreover, it's probably not going to be the 'alternative' or means for TP management that you think it will be, unless its a weaponskill that is technically inferior to ever TP choice. In which case it also becomes an inevitability, same an Unmend. When all other choices are unavailable, use. That's it.

I don't understand why adding it to sheltron would be an issue, or perhaps add it to say... awareness (as a trait).

Your point with other tanks is true, they might hit the floor, but no other tank is in a situation where they just stand still and do nothing to regenerate the TP, why waste flash? its not doing anything if you have hate, WAR has equilibrium because they used to have this issue, and DRK has lots that it can do with MP that keeps them doing damage.

It would be an issue because it adjusts priorities, or put otherwise, messes with existing gameplay. And it doesn't do so by making TP management a thing; it simply punishes your TP for holding onto your snap-mitigation for a coming tank-buster. That and it again requires MT position and physically attacking enemies. Adding it to Awareness has the same issue; now you're even less likely to maximize its mitigation opportunities because you desperately need it in order to keep up TP.

Upon running out of TP you can still shield someone the other tank for some 2.1k-2.8k, or heal for twice that in the time that you could Flash. It wouldn't be a tough argument to make that that's a better periodic opportunity than Unmend. Flash is also the only opportunity a TP-exhausted Warrior has (after blowing Del-Equil), the only difference being that it hits for more for them when in DPS stance, they can put out far fewer at a time, take much longer to regenerate their cost, and most will avoid equipping the spell altogether, at which point they have no such options at all.

Warrior didn't have TP issues unless AoEing. They were already greatly more TP-efficient than PLD by nature of their free Wrath weaponskills unless the Paladin had enough of an enmity lead to make heavy use of his Shield Swipe (a TP gain but only a 4% DPS gain and an enmity loss at the time). Equilibrium was more an increased opportunity for further AoE than it was a solution for inevitable TP exhaustion. As it stands, the only TP AoEer has the only TP restore. Makes sense.

DRK has only one mana alternative to TP weaponskills, Unmend. As they have no TP AoEs, Unleash is not an alternative.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the idea of adding a damaging mana-costing Weaponskill/Spell for PLD, but let's make sure we have the right reasons for its implementation?

[Lambdafish]

snip

I don't understand why adding it to sheltron would be an issue, or perhaps add it to say... awareness (as a trait).

Your point with other tanks is true, they might hit the floor, but no other tank is in a situation where they just stand still and do nothing to regenate the TP, why waste flash? its not doing anything if you have hate, WAR has equilibrium because they used to have this issue, and DRK has lots that it can do with MP that keeps them doing damage.