Unukalhai: Primals and Eikons

[Kaiser-Ace]

um, when bahamut was killed, it involved facing bahamut prime, who resided within the heart of bahamut. Was there an explanation as to why this was needed and what the Prime aspect of the being symbolized? because it sounded like a thing with primal of that scale, yet sephirot was handled like every other primal...with the added question of whatever there tree beings still exist to summon him.

it sounds like eikons are still the same thing as primals except the ones so far lack followers to summon. i would guess they trade immortality for power and sustainability, but, these seem no different.

We went in "The Burning Heart" because Bahamut was TOO Powerful to fight his Primal Form. So by Echoing into Bahamut's Soul we were effectively fighting the malice held by Bahamut Prime aka The TRUE Bahamut's Wrath. Now that we know Primals draw some parts of their "Inspiration" when summoned we can now connect Bahamut Prime to the original Bahamut that was slayn. Thus by destroying the soul fragment that we can (For now) assume is the Linchpin of the summon we effectively "Unsummoned" the primal rather than destroying it like we did Sephirot. Who we allegedly wouldn't have been able to defeat at full power so we ganked him while he was still recovering from his long nap. (I know it'd be easy to beat my ass first thing after I wake up)

[Rocl]

Unukalhai actually mentions the following:

On our path to the control chamber, we discovered a number of dormant thralls. It would seem the machines that preserve their forms also hold them in a state of torpor. We need not fear them summoning their deity anew.

This sounds like, as was the case with Dalamud and Bahamut, there were some worshipers held comatose in the Containment Bay. How Sephirot and Bahamut differ I can't say--why weren't the Scions worried about someone resummoning Bahamut? Especially considering there's hundreds, potentially thousands, of witnesses to his might and destructive prowess at Carteneau. At least with Sephirot you can write it off as the only people who would think to summon him are dead or the mentioned thralls.

Curiously the only 'Prime' beings we encounter are Bahamut, Atomos, and Ascian Prime. Bahamut and Atomos manifest as a Prime in a seemingly different plane of existence (aetherial sea and the Void respectively) while the Ascian Prime manifested in our material plane. Maybe there's a clue there about the true nature of Ascians and Primals.

I know Unukahlai said Eikons were different and much more powerful than Primals, and different still from Elder Primals, but have they said what exactly differentiates the two yet? Or is that lore that has yet to be explicitly told to us?

There is no clear, explicit answer we've received. Garlean "eikon" is a catchall term for a summoned deiform, but Allag "Eikon" is supposed to be something else entirely.

[WyrahFhurrst]

I know Unukahlai said Eikons were different and much more powerful than Primals, and different still from Elder Primals, but have they said what exactly differentiates the two yet? Or is that lore that has yet to be explicitly told to us?

[Kaiser-Ace]

I know Unukahlai said Eikons were different and much more powerful than Primals, and different still from Elder Primals, but have they said what exactly differentiates the two yet? Or is that lore that has yet to be explicitly told to us?

All the in game lore evidence we have suggests the complete opposite actually, but at the same time we only just now completed Act I in regards to The Eikon Threat and only after Act I did Unukalhai actually give us anything to go on at all. (Also we can almost confirm that "Totally Not Elidibus" actually isn't him. But that doesn't rule out the two being in league with each other)

[myahele]

The only thing I can think of is what the Eikons are based on. Sephirot is based on the World Tree; assuming that the World Tree existed that means that Sephirot has fragments of it since pieces of the original being soul is called upon and used when summoning a Primal.

That might explain why Sephirot has a unique aether that allows for extreme growth, among other things.

Other than that, I see no difference between Sephirot (and maybe other Eikons) and Bahamut. I guess we'll find out more in the comming patches

[Morningstar1337]

Come to think of it, I think that all the Eikons might have a "symbolic" aspect rather than an elemental one, which might be how they are so different.

Going off their name sakes. Sephirot is as already mentioned, the Tree of Life, thus he represent Life itself, but the other two?

Zurvan is as Zoroastrian Deity who is the god of Time, so he might be in essence, primal Althyk and represent time itself. But what of Sophia? Well the name sake was the original God that the Demiurge took the credit of creating like, the universe and everything from, but something tells me that her concept might be more literal. As her name is Greek for "wisdom" it stand to reason that she might represent Sentience.

Life, Time, Sentience. That sounds like the three things Allag needs for clones and artificial lifeforms, no?

[Gaiussenpai]

Somewhat related but can you not re watch the cut scene for the Fiend quest because staying up and being ancy I heard somewhere Regula makes an appearance at the end.

[CyrilLucifer]

You unfortunately cannot and yes, Regula does. You also probably missed Unukalhai being adorable. It's very annoying. SE, stop this. Please.

Edit to Kaiser, spoilering because off topic:

But we can't really say anything of the sort, though?

While I'm in the camp that says Unukalhai is who he says he is, Elidibus' servant and a Lesser Ascian, there is literally nothing in the questline that says he isn't Elidibus, either.

I will eat my hat if he's not related to Elidibus, either as Elidibus himself or as his servant, for reasons I've mentioned at least 5 times in other threads. His name is screaming at you in itself, but he's also spouting Elidibus quotes right and left. Though I admit I find it fascinating that, if he is a servant, Elidibus chooses to name his servants differently than Lahabrea does. Lahabrea is a very harsh master, numbering and categorizing them, where Elidibus' actually get unique names.

Though I don't want to derail this thread, so we can continue and I can defend my points in the 3.2 Discussion thread, if you'd like.

[Belhi]

Its interesting that the book next to Unukalhai states that Sephirot was a sacred tree that was turned into a Primal. Perhaps that lies at the key. Primals are the images of a worshipper's ideal given form, while Eikons are living things raised to into 'godhood' by being turned into a primal.

This fits for Odin too. The primal Odin seems to identify as the original warrior Odin. Why a sword transformed him from a person into a primal is hard to guess. Clearly the Sword itself doesn't require worshipers to sustain its form unless it literally tempers a new host the moment the last one dies. If that was the case the player killing Odin would banish Odin for good.

So does that mean Shiva and Thordan and maybe Phoenix were infact Eikons? Again it depends on the exact definition. There is a difference between them and Sephirot and Odin. In the case of Shiva, Thordan and Phoenix we have a imagined primal summoned into a human host. In the case of Sephirot and Odin, we have a being that exists turned into a primal form of that being.

Of course its all speculation. Its just an interesting similarity shared between Sephirot and Odin, the only to confirmed Eikons we know much about.

[WyrahFhurrst]

This fits for Odin too. The primal Odin seems to identify as the original warrior Odin. Why a sword transformed him from a person into a primal is hard to guess. Clearly the Sword itself doesn't require worshipers to sustain its form unless it literally tempers a new host the moment the last one dies. If that was the case the player killing Odin would banish Odin for good.

Or perhaps Zantetsuken is an Eikon and conjures Odin for it to be wielded. We don't know the origins of the sword itself, so perhaps it was a sacred sword elevated to godhood, similarwise to Sephirot.