PSA: Mentors can talk about anything they want in Novice Network - Discussion with GM

[Odett]

If no newbies are talking or being helped, then I don't see an issue with idle chat. We're not supposed to stay completely quiet until a Sprout has a question about the game. If a new player was being ignored in order for people to talk about endgame or melds, then that would be another situation, but the chat that was occurring wasn't being used to ignore newbies. You could see questions about melding or Midas strats as useless banter, but if someone asked those questions, and someone else answered to help them while no newbie was talking, I'd say you're in the wrong. If the chat was distracting you, you can leave it.

[Makado]

While I understand what some of you are saying, I also believe though that mentors engaging in conversation can also help sprouts. How? Well, for one it can lead them to ask questions about something they might not have thought about. "Oh so you were talking about that new raid, do you think I should focus on X or Y more? Oh your talking about doing a high level craft, what kinds of things should I try to prepare for when im leveling that can help me do that?" Basically what im saying is that idle mentor talk actually can be positive, and maybe even make it seem more inviting to some (oh look people are talking I feel more comfortable asking something). That's my two cents on the issue.

[Makado]

And honestly in an mmo while you always want to have fun, learning what things experienced players are doing or focus on can help lead you to what's really important (like an optimal strategy to save some time, cutting out some things that aren't important or don't really do anything / save you any time).

[Atoli]

My personal stance on the topic is that idle chat is fine as long as the primary function (to help newbies) is met. Our novice chat is very active in helping, questions get answered immidiately, help requests for heals, ressing, dungeon runs, etc. are all answered right away. The fact that sometimes other talk goes on when no one needs help or has questions at the moment has not hurt the newbies in any way and several have stated that they felt more involved and part of the community because of it or got a little taste of what they can look forward to.

Now of course, there is a limit to how far that unrelated banter may go, but so far it worked just fine to politely ask people to keep it down when it came to things like spoilers or when some wanted to turn it into a hunt ls by spamming hunt locations all the time.

As for the ban: it seems like an overreactionon SE's part only until you read closely and realize that it's not the OP's first offense. The ban happened because last time she only got a warning and the 1-day ban was the next step up, not because the kick system abuse was an especially grave offense.

[Syrehn]

After reading that screenshot I'm probably going to be hanging up my hat as a mentor. I don't need to be in a chat filled with spammy idle banter, spoilers, and random mish mash (where sprouts can't get a word in around mentor convo's); that's what LS's are for not what the Novice Network was supposed to be for.

I also don't believe, with the system being as new as it is with no clear rules, that the GM should have issued a ban. It was scummy on their part imo. Just re-solidifies my resolve to not participate any more, even though I'd like to help sprouts.

[SuperZay]

without caring about sprout needs

I believe everyone cares about their needs... When they ask something. But most of the time they do not.
Kicking people was not worth the warning/ban.

[Syrehn]

I believe everyone cares about their needs... When they ask something. But most of the time they do not.
Kicking people was not worth the warning/ban.

It hard for them to ask if the chat is always filled with spammy banter. They might not want to interrupt a mentor/mentor convo and therefore their questions go unasked and unanswered. I've seen sprouts even ask to be removed from the chat because of the constant mentor/mentor chit chat; it's not very considerate to the sprouts.

[Kosmos992k]

Regardless of what some random GM tells me, the Novice chat should be reserved for...you know helping the Novice players placed into it.

The odd bit of chat is fine but when it's reduced to a glorified global chat that's another story. We as a community need to enforce proper etiquette not with random kicks but with social awareness.

Completely agreed. This is about the community enforcing proper etiquette through awareness and persuasion, not kicking people for talking about legitimate game topics, even though they are not appropriate for the Novice channel.

With regard to what happened here, I can kind of see the GM's point here. The kick was for spamming, but the players were actually just chatting about something that was not entirely on-topic for the context. That's not spamming. If they were spamming for their FC, or selling things or whatever, I could see it being a justified kick, and I doubt the OP would have received a ban in that case. But the content of conversations is not something SE will normally attempt to govern. Since the players in question were apparently not discussing anything that violates the normal rules, I can't see how you can expect not to be reported for kick abuse if you kick people for chatting. So the GM had a situation where players were kicked for chatting about game content in-game, hardly something against the rules, and had reported that as kick abuse. It clearly meets the definition of kick abuse, so What choice does the GM actually have?

I don't think that this means that there is a laissez-faire approach to the channel, I think it means that people need to be mindful of what they kick others for. If you could not kick those players from a party for their discussion, if it doesn't violate the rules, then you have no real justifiable reason to kick them, and it will qualify as kick abuse. But nothing that the GM said suggested that this would have been kick abuse if the players who were kicked had been truly spamming the channel. Actually the GM seemed sympathetic to the OP, but at the same time the GM has to go by the rules.

People need to be really clear on this before castigating SE over it. SE is not in the business of governing the content of chat. If someone is reported for a violation in chat, they will check the logs to determine whether there was a violation. I can't think of any way that talking about end-game content or advanced melding qualifies as a rule violation. It's game relevant, not abusive or offensive and certainly not RMT or advertising. It is not entirely on topic for a novice channel, but if players are chatting and the channel is quiet, I would anticipate that player will chat about other things.

[Syrehn]

People need to be really clear on this before castigating SE over it. SE is not in the business of governing the content of chat. If someone is reported for a violation in chat, they will check the logs to determine whether there was a violation. I can't think of any way that talking about end-game content or advanced melding qualifies as a rule violation. It's game relevant, not abusive or offensive and certainly not RMT or advertising. It is not entirely on topic for a novice channel, but if players are chatting and the channel is quiet, I would anticipate that player will chat about other things.

Sorry but if SE is going to implement this type of system then they need to also set clearly defined rules regarding it's usage (what's considered on/off-topic) before slapping someone with a ban hammer who thought they were following what the Novice Network is supposed to be for; helping Novice's. The onus is completely on SE for not being clear right from the get go.

[Kosmos992k]

That's what you get from trying to take away the rights to speak from other people.

We are free!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...s_Constitution

The NA servers are in Canada, the company is based in JP, players are from many different countries. The US constitution such as it is, is only valid inside the geographic borders of the United States and it's territories. That itself invalidates the point of holding up the first amendment as an argument.

Secondly, the first amendment guarantees freedom of expression, it does NOT confer immunity to any consequences of the freedom of expression. Hate speech for example, or threatening people, or inciting people to riot. These are all covered by freedom of expression, and all carry potential legal consequence.

Too often people wish to avoid their accountability and responsibility for what they say and do by hiding behind the talisman of the First amendment right to freedom of expression. That's not what the amendment grants.

Be that as it may, the US constitution has no standing internationally. Nor does it cover a private setting such as an in-game chat. The same is true of discussion forums such as this one. When you sign up, you accept the terms and conditions of a private environment, not a public one, which means that the 'owner' of the environment can set the rules, and the Constitution has little to say on the matter.