Why should warriors get a free pass to all savage content?

[Gameplayzero]

No, it's not.
But you have to make the game more complex...and not focus on DPS only.

thats how it is with every game. Even in a video game that has top notch balance there always be something better than another. Look at fighting games. Tier list wouldn't exist otherwise.

Even if dps problem is fixed, Dark and Paladin still have flaws that are very apparent (tempered will anyone?). Melee dps are imo the most balanced, but there is a still a preference in which jobs to take over others for the reason the guy posted above. For every situation there will always be something better used than another. Its not as simple as taking away dps checks. All that does is make more jobs viable for the current content. Doesn't make them AT THE CORE "better" as it was evident last patch that toolkit wise warrior stood out on top ignoring dps. Overall synergy with moves was just better.

[Reynhart]

Tier list wouldn't exist otherwise.

Tier list is something else.
You can be very high of the list even if most of your scores are bad.
Example :
Let's take 4 character : A, B, C and D

• A vs B : A wins 8 times, B wins 2
• A vs C : A wins 4 times, C wins 6
• A vs D : A wins 4 times, C wins 6
• B vs C : B wins 6 times, C wins 4
• B vs D : B wins 6 times, C wins 4
• C vs D : C wins 5 times, D wins 5

A : 16 points
B : 14 points
C : 15 points
D : 15 points
So A is top tier...but it's still "weaker" than C and D.

And in tier lists, you can several characters with the same score, so they'd be "balanced" in regards to the list even if one of them wrecks the other one on one.

Tempered Will is not a flaw, Cover is not a flaw. In fact, since the game is really simple, a job doesn't need a lot of skills to be really usefull. In the end, it's a matter of potency above all else. Utility comes when your potency is lower.

[Gameplayzero]

Tier list is something else.

idk where those scores come from but thats not how tier list are determined. They are determined by consistent results with the characters. Better characters consistently win tournaments or have better tools than the other characters. Their pros for the most part outweigh their cons and they are fairly advantageous in most encounters. Its the same thing here. Warrior is top for a good a reason. If there was a tier list even with the meta being balanced warrior would most likely still be top thanks to its toolset.

and yes tempered will is a flaw. Its cooldown is far too long and the move itself is far too situational with no side benefit. Compare it to something like raw intuition. It is only good for physical attacks BUT thanks to the side benefit of granting another stack its still worth using. Paladin has a lot of situational cooldowns in comparison to the other tanks that can be completely ignored at times. Does tempered will help? For sure. But realistically when you can dodge the mechanics like everyone else why? You don't even need it. You'll only use it once every blue moon thanks to its ridiculous wait time. Cover is nice, but again: is it needed? No. And paladin toolkit is very awkward. Correct me if i'm wrong but you have to waste 2,000 or more mp just to get a shield on other party members? Yeah you can cheat and cross class cure but that really doesn't seem worth it. Why doesn't it just self activate? yay teamwork?

the only thing I can see is if they made fights with paladins specifically in mind, but what the heck kind of balancing would that be?
balance isn't as simple as 'everyone comes close together". Its far more complicated than that.

[Reynhart]

idk where those scores come from but thats not how tier list are determined.

Yes, this is

You make statistics on each match up (as you said, taken from tournaments), bring it down to "out-of-ten win/loss" ratio, and then adds everything.

and yes tempered will is a flaw. Its cooldown is far too long and the move itself is far too situational with no side benefit.

It still has no impact in the end. IF PLD did more damage than WAR, it could have an even weaker Tempered Will that no one would care.

As for Divine Veil, yes, cross-classing cure is totally worth it...because you don't need 5 meaningful cross-class skill, so why not take cure ?

[Gameplayzero]

Ye

Thanks for sharing that. for divine veil alone now cure is worth it. Before? Not at all.

but you lead into my point. Besides foresight warrior doesn't have many/any cooldowns or tools that nobody cares for. Dark has a few awkward stuff but not so much because of the tools, but mainly between OT and MT (blood price, dark dance + dark arts, and reprisal as OT). Other than that I "don't think" (as I don't use dark) dark has tools you completely ignore in most situations. Thats not good design to me.

BUT a lot of useless cooldowns in PvE have GREAT usage in PvP. Thats probably why tempered is probably there. Getting pushed off cliffs is a big deal in certain modes. Oddly enough besides the short burst warrior DID before this patch, nothing of theirs really stands out for pvp in comparison to paladin with their normal toolkit. Stun lock, silence, tempered, cover. Thats pretty cool honestly.

[Reynhart]

for divine veil alone now cure is worth it. Before? Not at all.

Absolutely

Thats not good design to me

On that, we agree too.
When I say it's not a "flaw", it's still a bit of a problem. Why give so many skills if, in the end, only the damage you do matters ? The game lacks complexity to have already that many jobs.
And I fear the future expansions which will bring even more jobs in the balance.

BUT a lot of useless cooldowns in PvE have GREAT usage in PvP.

The thing is, we have special actions for PvP. It would be fun to switch some of them as I'm sure some PvP actions would be great for PvE.