Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

[Dualgunner]

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2304119/

I'm i208...with 1072 AP. So I'll be going down in AP with top tier 3.2 gear? Unless I'm misunderstanding something in your calculations.

If I am I apologize, I'm just confused lol

[Ibi]

Jewelry only has one stat on it. As stats go up, tank DPS will go down.

Unless they decrease the amount of strength and stats on all DPS gear.

First Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 95% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

Second Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 90% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

Third Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 85% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

That is because as stats go up, scaling goes down further and further.

I already explained why this is incorrect all the way back in post #29, on page 3. I was using estimates at the time, but even though the conclusion doesn't change, let's show the results using the actual numbers:



As you can see when we use the actual numbers, the ratio of the monk's damage-influencing stats from gear to the warrior's damage-influencing stats from gear actually decreases as item level increases, because vitality increases faster with item level than the primary damage stats:

• i150 rings have 29 VIT vs 31 STR
• i190 rings have 40 VIT vs 40 STR
• i210 rings have 49 VIT vs 47 STR
• i240 rings have 66 VIT vs 61 STR

(The formulas changed between 2.x and 3.x, but you can see that it's pretty consistent from i150 onwards.)

[Mycow8me]

Its called stance dancing. If you need to flash adds, then switch stances. If you want to optimize damage, switch stances.
If you want shield oath up 24/7 and damage equal to a drk without grit, i just dont know what to say lol.

[therpgfanatic]

@ Mycow8me

Your suggestion would have more weight if stance dancing was part of PLD mechanics, which it is not. Whereas it is for DRK and WAR.

See a pattern here? Because PLD doesn't mechanically work like WAR and DRK, therein lies the issue.

*Practically non-existent AoE damage.
*Wholly dependent on Shield Oath for tanking.
*Applying a DoT requires performing a three hit combo that generates little enmity.
*HP recovery skill (Clemency) can't be used while tanking.
*Most mitigation cooldowns only work against physical attacks.

These are problems exclusive to PLD which DRK and WAR do not have. They both stance dance as part of their mechanics, they both can instant apply a DoT, they both can recover HP while tanking and they both have strong AoE damage.

In contrast, there isn't a single problem that WAR / DRK have which PLD don't possess. PLD has no advantage.

[Kosmos992k]

*sigh*
My math was wrong, as I said in my edit in my previous post, I included accessories where I should not in the calculation. Now, I'm hoping that I corrected things here, if not, I'm firing my calculator.

Fixing that error the numbers change to;

Dravinian + Hive weapons
PLD to DRG = 0.786

Gordian
PLD to DRG = 0.789

Top tier ilvl 245 from 3.2
PLD to DRG = 0.805

Unfortunatly my mistake drops the ratio between PLD (tanks in general ) and DRG (STR based DPS) to between 0.786 and 0.805, which is much less than my original calculation.

However, my point was, and still is, we are not losing DPS as Nektulos-Tuor says we are. If you project out the DPS tanks were capable of in 3.1 and project it forwards with increasing ilvl, our new DPS will be below that line. But, there is no loss of DPS because that's a false comparison. We are not losing anything more with each ilvl bump because of the scaling of the stats.

If you look at the stats on the actual gear, the gap between VIT and STR is actually increasing, even though STR is baseline and the same on tank and DD gear. In other words, VIT is increasing faster than STR is. Looking at just the armor and weapons, on the Dravinian gear with Hive weapons, there were 1.04 points of VIT for every point of STR, on the Gordian there were 1.06 points of VIT for each point of STR and on the ilvl 245 set there are 1.09 points of VIT for every point of STR.

So although there has been both a change to the primary stat and calculation, we're not losing more and more DPS over time, and based on the progression of the gear I looked at, over time the VIT on gear seems to be increasing at a faster rate than STR, resulting in a net gain of DPS as ilvl increases.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2304119/

I'm i208...with 1072 AP. So I'll be going down in AP with top tier 3.2 gear? Unless I'm misunderstanding something in your calculations.

If I am I apologize, I'm just confused lol

If this was intended for me, my calculations is looking exclusively at the impact of the stats on our gear, I did not include our optional points, or the impact of DET.

[Dualgunner]

If this was intended for me, my calculations is looking exclusively at the impact of the stats on our gear, I did not include our optional points, or the impact of DET.

It was, yeah ^^;

I was just confused because even accounting for the race bonus of Au Ra (+23) and bonus stats (+~35), I still end up with 1014 (thus, 1014 AP) strength at i208, which while lower than your number for i245 gear drg (holy crap they pushed it to i245?!), it was only by 5 on your original post (have not checked the edit yet). Also since we agree 1 str = 1 AP for DRG, DET doesn't factor into AP unless 622 DET < 1 STR.

EDIT: I'm not arguing the point that Tanks are losing dps over time--the numbers stack up well enough to prove that wrong, I've seen so far. I'm just trying to get the best understanding of your tank calculations I can

[Kosmos992k]

It was, yeah ^^;

I was just confused because even accounting for the race bonus of Au Ra (+23) and bonus stats (+~35), I still end up with 1014 (thus, 1014 AP) strength at i208, which while lower than your number for i245 gear drg (holy crap they pushed it to i245?!), it was only by 5 on your original post (have not checked the edit yet). Also since we agree 1 str = 1 AP for DRG, DET doesn't factor into AP unless 622 DET < 1 STR.

EDIT: I'm not arguing the point that Tanks are losing dps over time--the numbers stack up well enough to prove that wrong, I've seen so far. I'm just trying to get the best understanding of your tank calculations I can

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, I wasn't trying to calculate actual or effective AP in-game. I was just looking at the gearsets to see whether what NT was claiming was even remotely the case. I don't have a good enough handle on all of the ins and outs of the secondary stats and other factors that play in, I was simply comparing the pure STR build for a DRG (as an example) in DRG gear + slaying accessories to a tank (PLD) in full fending. Looking at just the primary stats, it was clear that there is no stacking loss building over time, just a flat rate nerf.

You should see the pieces of paper I was scrawling the numbers on, if I'd included everything I'd have needed an Excel sheet for it...lol.

[Dualgunner]

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, I wasn't trying to calculate actual or effective AP in-game. I was just looking at the gearsets to see whether what NT was claiming was even remotely the case. I don't have a good enough handle on all of the ins and outs of the secondary stats and other factors that play in, I was simply comparing the pure STR build for a DRG (as an example) in DRG gear + slaying accessories to a tank (PLD) in full fending. Looking at just the primary stats, it was clear that there is no stacking loss building over time, just a flat rate nerf.

You should see the pieces of paper I was scrawling the numbers on, if I'd included everything I'd have needed an Excel sheet for it...lol.

Ahh, okay I can see that! Thanks for clearing that up :3

[Mycow8me]

What are you even talking about. This was about the gap between dps which was smaller than you thought on the chart. Now were suddenly on the topic of skills and abilities.
My pld friend stance dances all the times. After you have a certain amount of hate on bosses, u can switch to sword oath and retain hate comfortably. You can even switch back for mechanics in a fight that require it.
Paladins wanted the gap closed dps wise and you got it. If you want it to play like war or dark thats another story.
It IS a part of your mechanics. You want to do more dps, you dance.

[Harz]

@FallenWings:

If PLD's tanked in Sword Oath then you might have a point.

You quoted Sword Oath numbers. Likely on purpose, cause it supports your argument, even though it is obvious to anyone that PLD cannot tank in Sword Oath. DRK can tank while Darkside is active.

My PLD could pull over 800 in A3S over 12 minutes, he spent most of it in sword oath after initial pull unless he needed shield for cleaves or mechanics.

"PLD cannot tank in sword oath" my ass.