Goodbye strength tanks. Let us never be forgotten.

[TheUltimateSeph]

Ok, in that case Im gonna just say players named Seraph Morningstar are bad then. After all clearly thats all someone needs to do for something to be fact.

Because tanks are supposed to be tanking not DPSing and to use STR gear instead of VIT gear is gimping their HP on purpose and being rude to other players they queue with and making it harder for healers to keep them alive because their HP pools are smaller then the dps. At that point might as well just get rid of the tank and add a third real dps.

[Andrea]

Because tanks are supposed to be tanking not DPSing and to use STR gear instead of VIT gear is gimping their HP on purpose and being rude to other players they queue with and making it harder for healers to keep them alive because their HP pools are smaller then the dps.

Funny you should say that as when talking about un-equipping your job stone you told me this.

why bother kicking them for playing on a class in the first place? Because you want to take a chance at getting someone who might be more efficient at their role? This is why I defend "lazy" play and "gimping" yourself. Because if they are actually contributing something to the party you have no one but yourself to blame when the run goes slower because your attitude towards them is bad or you kick them for their choice of playstyle. Can't wait till people follow your train of logic further down the tracks and start vote kicking people who's gear simply doesn't meet their standards.

So for Job stones its ok to gimp yourself, but for gear its not?

You also claimed that people would start vote kicking people due to gear not meeting standards..but here you are calling every strength tank bad...?

Then theres also this gem on people complaining about people gimping themselves....

Also to all these arguments saying it's rude and selfish etc. for people to gimp themselves like this, I just wanna say you come off at least equally as selfish in your complaints. It's always they are slowing down MY run, wasting MY time, ruining MY experience. It's MY sub and I shouldn't have to play with these bad players. So much Me Me Me

[Saint_Angeles]

Funny you should say that as when talking about un-equipping your job stone you told me this.



So for Job stones its ok to gimp yourself, but for gear its not?

You also claimed that people would start vote kicking people due to gear not meeting standards..but here you are calling every strength tank bad...?

[CGMidlander]

Because tanks are supposed to be tanking not DPSing and to use STR gear instead of VIT gear is gimping their HP on purpose and being rude to other players they queue with and making it harder for healers to keep them alive because their HP pools are smaller then the dps. At that point might as well just get rid of the tank and add a third real dps.

Except, it's not harder (in the context of non-savage instances), if the tank and healer even remotely know what they're doing. The crux of your argument is untrue.

[TheUltimateSeph]

Funny you should say that as when talking about un-equipping your job stone you told me this.



So for Job stones its ok to gimp yourself, but for gear its not?

You also claimed that people would start vote kicking people due to gear not meeting standards..but here you are calling every strength tank bad...?

Then theres also this gem on people complaining about people gimping themselves....

Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

[Dualgunner]

Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

You haven't brought up any points to contest, really. Anecdotal evidence (ie, "This one time a STR tank died and it was really bad :c") does not pass as evidence as there is no proof it encompasses the whole and there is no way to argue with that. While ad hominem/poisoning the well is a fallacy as well, it was pointing out you held a different position on a similar matter; it has no bearing on STR tanks but it does point out you're willing to say anything to try and win the argument.

[Andrea]

Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

Are all you posts sarcastic then?

Wouldn't call it attacking you more asking why you feel one is ok while the other isn't.

If I want to attack you i'd insult you directly not by trying to discuss something.

Also on your question I don't believe either vit or str tanks are 'bad'

[TheUltimateSeph]

Are all you posts sarcastic then?

Wouldn't call it attacking you more asking why you feel one is ok while the other isn't.

If I want to attack you i'd insult you directly not by trying to discuss something.




Also on your question I don't believe either vit or str tanks are 'bad'

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

[Edewen]

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

As you said, that is a personal opinion. Str or Vit didn't make you bad, it simply made the healers have very little wiggle room when you were gearing to have just enough health to survive the tank buster.

What makes a tank is 4 things really

1. Threat: If you don't have threat, you aren't a tank
2. Mitigation: proper cool-down usage to do everything you can to help your healers
3. Dodging: Nothing is worse than having to stop laying down dots and heal simply bc the tank was too lazy to move
4. Maximizing DPS: To be clear, this means raids dps. This could be many things, from not moving the boss needlessly, popping group cool-downs so healers can pump out more, and yes, maximizing yourself.

Good tanks do the first 3. Great tanks can do it all. And up to this point, even though yuo may not like it, I wasn't a big fan either, it is irrefutable FACT that in order to be a great tank and give everything you had to win, you had to wear str gear and trust your healers to not need the wiggle room because it was the ideal way to maximize the groups damage output.

[Gyson]

As you said, that is a personal opinion. Str or Vit didn't make you bad, it simply made the healers have very little wiggle room when you were gearing to have just enough health to survive the tank buster.

What makes a tank is 4 things really

1. Threat: If you don't have threat, you aren't a tank
2. Mitigation: proper cool-down usage to do everything you can to help your healers
3. Dodging: Nothing is worse than having to stop laying down dots and heal simply bc the tank was too lazy to move
4. Maximizing DPS: To be clear, this means raids dps. This could be many things, from not moving the boss needlessly, popping group cool-downs so healers can pump out more, and yes, maximizing yourself.

Good tanks do the first 3. Great tanks can do it all. And up to this point, even though yuo may not like it, I wasn't a big fan either, it is irrefutable FACT that in order to be a great tank and give everything you had to win, you had to wear str gear and trust your healers to not need the wiggle room because it was the ideal way to maximize the groups damage output.

And that's fine if you're in a static that's fairly familiar with each other's playstyle. However, rarely are those the circumstances for most tanks (or for most of their time spent tanking), and expecting random strangers to perform well with "very little wiggle room" is just inviting trouble. And for what? What has a STR tank pugging along with everyone else in Void Ark really added to anything? In the grand scheme of things a negligible increase in overall raid DPS at the cost of a respectable amount of health that requires the healers to babysit them more closely than they should need to. With as flaky as PUGs can be, a single wipe in a 24 man raid can lead to a vote-abandon. Why in the world would any reasonable tank increase the risk of causing that mess by not gearing for survivability instead?

When I'm tanking with friends and we're failing a DPS check, I'll toss on some STR gear because every little bit helps. But most of the time, in most of this game, it is completely unnecessary and (I would argue) adding additional risk for nothing. I doubt most people care if a STR tank can cut a 25 minute dungeon run down to 23 minutes. They do mind, though, if said tank runs out of health and the resulting wipe wastes everyone's time with a lengthy run back to the failed encounter to spend even more time trying again.

These STR/VIT tank arguments go 'round and 'round as the people participating in them try to pretend that their STR builds are critical to tanking since everyone is (incoming B.S.) working on cutting edge content all the time. Yet we all know that just isn't the case for most players. A VIT tank is not bad or a "newbie" because they chose not to gear for STR for the majority of pugged content in this game - they're just wisely erring on the side of caution. I can respect that. I can not respect a tank who is choosing to instead risk significant delays for extremely minor gains and bragging rights on a DPS meter.

Using STR accessories instead of VIT definitely had its place. Great, settled. However, for the other 99% of scenarios (which always seem to be ignored in these discussions) it was a bad idea, and I'm super-happy that SE is removing that choice from the hands of players who couldn't figure out the difference between the right and wrong time to spec for STR.

Everyone in this thread will pretend that doesn't include them. And that was a big part of the problem.