Dear Square-Enix: You Forgot About Buffs to Dark Knight's Off-Tank Utility.

[MiniPrinny]

-snip-

Exactly, also, the changes I mentioned to Warrior and Ninja is for fairness towards Summoner and Scholar in PvP, where the Infirmity (Malady) applied by Miasma and Miasma II plays a bigger role. Because at the moment, Warrior and Ninja's slashing down debuffs stacks with Malady, Malady has diminishing returns, while Dancing Edge and Storm's Eye do not. It seems a little one-sided in terms of PvP balance.

Breaking these debuffs up into multiple parts solves multiple problems at once, it gives Dark Knight some of its much needed off-tank utility, it helps balance PvP for Warrior and Ninja (two of the stronger melee Jobs currently). And if that was not enough, this change would also be a buff to Ninja and Warrior in an indirect way by letting Warriors use Storm's Path constantly instead of Eye, and Ninjas who are without Warriors use more Aeolian Edges.

I honestly don't see what the big issue is. Paladin and dark Knight gear is changeable minus weapon. Not like you can't just play both pal and drk.

Some of us are uncomfortable on other tanking Jobs, be it from a lack of experience, or just disliking the play style. In my case, it is a mix of both. Also, it is unhealthy for the raid environment as a whole to have vast power gaps between Jobs.

[Syzygian]

I honestly don't see what the big issue is. Paladin and dark Knight gear is changeable minus weapon. Not like you can't just play both pal and drk.

Because that's silly. There's no justifiable reason why that should be the default.

I personally am in a nice spot, because my WAR OT will go PLD and MT (and I'll go WAR) should a fight require that. But potentially being personally unaffected by the issue doesn't make it any less of an issue or mean that its not worthy of pointing out.

[DBelmont]

I honestly don't see what the big issue is. Paladin and dark Knight gear is changeable minus weapon. Not like you can't just play both pal and drk.

That is exactly the mentality I am afraid of in 3.2.` Even if I am able to play other tanks or if I enjoy trying them out once in while, I simply find it distasteful to be forced into another job just because it's more efficient and I have the gear for it.

The most distrurbing part is that the luxury to share gear across jobs is supposed to be positive thing and groups might use that against you. In other words, if DRK is underperforming and the only solution is to swap to PLD because "same gear" then that's a fail design and something that should be stated by DRKs when looking for groups. If things are as bad as someone not landing a spot as DRK in progress groups, then I guess I am sitting off this raid tier until a miracle occurs.

[Brian_]

I don't get why we don't get more fights like these. I liked the scenarios where MT/OT had a minimal distinction and tanking was more universal.

We got plenthy of that this tier. In A1S, once the boss splits, both tanks have identical duties. In A3S, once the boss splits, tanking duties are mirrored between both tanks. A4S through the leg phases also has pretty equal tanking distribution.

Anyways, this topic has a major flaw.

Nobody views raid utility or raid DPS as singular entities. They are viewed within the context of group compositions. The reason why DRK and WAR were preferred this tier was because of the overall compositions they enabled.

If you are going to devalue the INT debuff because MNK can replace it, you also have to consider the other things you lose when bringing MNK over DRK and dropping either NIN or DRG from your DPS comp. If you are going to run a PLD / DRK tank pairing, then you will be bringing NIN and DRG. The advantages that comp has over any other comp is they have much better top-end raid mitigation without giving up NIN's utility. This is made possible by DRK's utility.

[MiniPrinny]

-snip-

This is very true. My own static runs a Paladin ("Main Tank" while learning), White Mage, Scholar, Ninja, Dragoon, Summoner, Machinist, and myself (Dark Knight, "Main Tank" after learning). And while yes, there are times where we bemoan the fact that our Ninja suffers a little, and that I bring less to the table while we're learning encounters, we do enjoy our composition and primary Jobs. Also, now that we can share gear, I'm leveling the other tanks in case we want them for a fight instead of my main.

[Galdous]

That is exactly the mentality I am afraid of in 3.2.` Even if I am able to play other tanks or if I enjoy trying them out once in while, I simply find it distasteful to be forced into another job just because it's more efficient and I have the gear for it.

The most distrurbing part is that the luxury to share gear across jobs is supposed to be positive thing and groups might use that against you. In other words, if DRK is underperforming and the only solution is to swap to PLD because "same gear" then that's a fail design and something that should be stated by DRKs when looking for groups. If things are as bad as someone not landing a spot as DRK in progress groups, then I guess I am sitting off this raid tier until a miracle occurs.

That is actually something I agree whole with hardheartedly. Was a machinist but was semi pressured into going back to a bard when I did raid. Se could seperate gear like they did with Esoteric.

[Syzygian]

Anyways, this topic has a major flaw.

What you're saying has an even bigger flaw.

MNK doesn't make Delirium better or worse and having a DRG/NIN melee comp doesn't make a DRK OT more desirable; it makes a DRK MT more desirable.

Delirium in and of itself is a fine debuff. Its good for what it is. But by itself? That's a pitiful amount of utility compared to what the other tanks bring, in either role. Now while MTing, Delirium+Reprisal is a perfectly good balance of good utility that stacks and synergizes with the other tanks' kits. No complaints there.

Lets pretend for a moment that MNK doesn't exist and DRK is your sole option for INT down. The only possible melee comp is DRG/NIN.

Now lets say your MT is a PLD. Do you bring WAR or DRK? Path already outdoes Delirium because not only does it cover physical and magical, but damage dealt down > stat down.

And THEN on top of THAT it brings a slashing debuff.

Now lets say your MT is a WAR. Do you bring PLD or DRK? Well, RoH is equivalent to Delirium in value. But THEN it has DV, Clemency, and Cover, which, while the latter two are iffy to use, they're still better than nothing at all, and paired with DV, are a huge thing to miss out on. DV is easily capable of mitigating (especially now that tanks will have more HP) as much or more damage from the same things Delirium was desirable for, such as Cascade in A3S.

The point is melee composition has nothing to do with it when we are talking about a DRK OTing. While MTing, you betcha. But no matter WHAT your melee comp is, if its down to the OT slot, either other tank brings more to your group overall. Not having a MNK doesn't make DRK more desirable over PLD for OT (it offers equivalent (at worst) or better raid mitigation) and it CERTAINLY doesn't make it more desirable than WAR for OT.

[Launched]

Now lets say your MT is a WAR. Do you bring PLD or DRK? Well, RoH is equivalent to Delirium in value. But THEN it has DV, Clemency, and Cover, which, while the latter two are iffy to use, they're still better than nothing at all, and paired with DV, are a huge thing to miss out on. DV is easily capable of mitigating (especially now that tanks will have more HP) as much or more damage from the same things Delirium was desirable for, such as Cascade in A3S.

I disagree. DRK having more DPS than PLD, along with the occasional Reprisal when there's a tank swap or the OT has to tank something, is a valid alternative to DV, Clemency and Cover because Clemency and Cover are incredibly situational. You can say that DV is capable of mitigating more damage at once than Delirium because it is, but you can have Delirium up for every single raidwide aoe like Cascade, while DV is limited by its still long 2 minute cooldown. RoH is physical damage only and most raidwide aoes are magical, and you don't really care about reducing autoattacks on the MT (or tankbusters when they already have IB+Vengeance up).

[Syzygian]

I disagree. DRK having more DPS than PLD, along with the occasional Reprisal when there's a tank swap or the OT has to tank something, is a valid alternative to DV, Clemency and Cover because Clemency and Cover are incredibly situational. You can say that DV is capable of mitigating more damage at once than Delirium because it is, but you can have Delirium up for every single raidwide aoe like Cascade, while DV is limited by its still long 2 minute cooldown. RoH is physical damage only and most raidwide aoes are magical, and you don't really care about reducing autoattacks on the MT (or tankbusters when they already have IB+Vengeance up).

So lets say they are roughly equivalent - DRK only bringing a debuff that is easily expendable/replaceable as its sole party-based raid utility (personal DPS is not raid utility) is really.... really bad.

[Akasha_Carnelian]

The point is that it is speculated that the 3.2 adjustments to tanks and tank damage are to bring all 3 tanks in line damage wise. Thus if PLD and DRK are both equal in damage, logically you would take the one that has greater or more valuable utility and this applies whether you are filling MT or OT role.

Having a MNK in the group lessens a DRK's already lacking utlity and when the rest of it's utility needs it to be tanking something to work or engaging in the questionable practice of skirting cleaves for procs when parrying isn't guarenteed.

Paladin on the other hand has a ton of utility that it can draw on and it can do so whether it is tanking something or not. Some of said utility reqiures lowering personal DPS which is fine but will still potentially leave it more desirable for raid group without a monk and even moreso for those with.

DRK players shouldn't need to feel like they are going to be pressured to change to PLD and vice versa just because situations conspire to make one or the other flavour of the month (or 6 months since we're talking aout raiding), but the fact is that regardless of if there are tank swaps or not if damage is equal between the two you are going to want whatever brings the most in other areas which at the moment PLD has in spades whilst DRK has 1.5 things as MT and 0.5 as OT.

And as stated elswhere WAR utility is always going to be wanted even if it's only a Slashing Buff and a -10% damage debuff as if you have a NIN is is less of a loss for the WAR to apply and -10% raidwide damage that can be applied always is quite the boon.