Yoshida on Patch 3.2 Content - Famitsu Translation

[therpgfanatic]

I played GLA/PLD since day 1, and now I have a DRK 60 and WAR 58, and I tell you: Tanks are OPs right now and I think lower Tank dps is a fair thing.

Solo content (fates/side quests/main quests/job quests/leves): Tanks can kill things almost as fast as dpss, plus survive a lot longer and deal with 2 or 3 enemies at once. Dpss can't.

Bullcrap. PLD / GLD is one of the weakest soloing classes in the game, especially during story mode battles. Back when I did my relic quest, all the map farming for alexandrite had to be done on my SMN because I couldn't solo any of the encounters involving more than 3 mobs on my PLD, even with my chocobo specced out for healing.

The whole idea that solo tanks will outlast mobs of enemies in a MMO is extremely antiquated game design thinking. Wars of attrition result in the one under attack to be defeated, not the other way around.

The lack of AoE for PLDs is a real killer. And don't nobody even suggest Circle of Scorn is an AoE attack; go pop into Satasha NORMAL unsynched on a 60 PLD and try to kill a mob with Scorn, it won't even half their health bars. It's auto-attack without the bonus from Sword Oath. On lv 15-18 mobs, and being max level, Circle of Scorn won't even kill trash many levels below a PLD, let alone put a meaningful dent into enemies the same lv as the PLD.

Players need to set aside the "holier than thou" attitudes and use every opportunity someone legit complaints about bad game design as an golden chance to talk about how awesome of a gamer they are to do things in spite of the bad design. It doesn't send any united feedback that gets the issues addressed when you bury your head in the sand like that.

The devs want more tanks to run in DF pugs, but they don't want to do the one key thing that would make a difference; put tank DPS on par with DPS classes if the tank is in a party. It works like this in most MMOs, namely the most popular one (WoW, where tanks tend to top the parsers) and the world doesn't end.

When players of tanks feel like they are helpless to clear encounters because of bad DPS players, it makes them not want to run PUGs at all. No matter what bonus they get, no matter what special mount can be obtained. None of that is worth a dungeon run taking over half an hour because some idiot BLM / BRD doesn't want to use their AoE to kill trash and melee DPS who ignore their rotations to spam one skill for the entire dungeon run, or wipes caused because even when the tank tries they can't kill mechanic-crucial adds the DPS are utterly ignoring in favor of just focusing on the boss.

I get so tired of dealing with morons in PF that I just plain abandon the party these days rather than try to argue with people who either want to be jerks or just don't care about learning the basics of their class. I'd rather eat a half hour wait time penalty as my character sits AFK than spend that time wiping because there's nothing I can do to compensate for players who won't do their proper rotations or purposely ignore boss mechanics requiring them to do anything more complicated than attack the boss from the rear.

Party content (primals, dgns, raids): Outside dps checks, we don't have ANY reason to bring a dps to party content. You can go with 6tanks and 2healers and clear any content ( again, outside dps checks). If you do a party with 6 dps and 2 healers, everyone will die eventually. 0 chances to clear any content.

Not true, several DPS have party buffs or enemy debuffs that are very helpful to an encounter. Whether specific players actually use these abilities or not is another issue, but all DPS have some kind of added utility beyond just dealing damage. That's usually how DPS are balanced in party mechanics in MMOs. The tank by themselves can't solo the same DPS as a pure DPS class, but in a party the tank can if the DPS employ their utility skills. This is how most MMOs work these days to avoid the issue FFXIV has with few people wanting to tank because it usually results in the tank at the complete mercy of the DPSers and healers to be good in order for a dungeon clear to occur, and given tanking is a role with the most responsibility it's something a lot of people don't want to do by its very nature. Intentionally making tank DPS the lowest in the game sends the message to players that if they tank, no matter how good they are, they are at the total mercy of other randomly selected people being good at their classes to clear even normal dungeons and cannot compensate for their shortcomings in any meaningful way.

You want to see more tanks in the Duty Finder, then make tanking in Duty Finder less frustrating. The only way to do that is allow the tank to have enough DPS to take down those adds during a boss fight that cause party wipes if the DPS don't take them down. It's not that complex to understand. Sure, in a perfect world the DPS would do their jobs perfectly every time but this is reality and she is a harsh mistress. A significant portion of the playerbase chooses to not play their class in an even semi-optimal way that makes these perfectly designed encounters unbreakable walls to overcome, and tanks generally would not care as much if the DPS were loons if we could overcome some of these mechanics ourselves during a PF run.

People -- especially the devs -- need to stop thinking of "highest defensive ability" as some kind of special advantage that tanks have. It's not. The only reason tanks need high defensive ability is because you made PvE enemy difficulty centered around stronger enemies dealing tons of damage at scheduled intervals. As can be seen in PvP, high defensive ability amounts to zilch in the face of continuous high damage output which DPS classes can deal.

It's probably not ironic that in the new PVP event, the devs don't intend tanks to meaningfully contribute to their group beyond picking up medals.

[Ibi]

Bullcrap. PLD / GLD is one of the weakest soloing classes in the game, especially during story mode battles. Back when I did my relic quest, all the map farming for alexandrite had to be done on my SMN because I couldn't solo any of the encounters involving more than 3 mobs on my PLD, even with my chocobo specced out for healing.

That's weird.

I did all mine on paladin, usually forgetting I even had a chocobo, because I was more-or-less impossible to kill, and I never had any issues with killing stuff in a timely manner.

[therpgfanatic]

That's weird.

I did all mine on paladin, usually forgetting I even had a chocobo, because I was more-or-less impossible to kill, and I never had any issues with killing stuff in a timely manner.

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I mention players who act like they are awesome in unrealistic ways.

The Rock giant with bomb minions is impossible to solo as a PLD as it requires the ability to either burn down the adds or kite them while DPS; neither of which a PLD is equipped to do. I don't even want to hear this crap that you were impossible to kill. You might be able to endure the Malboro or the Cyclops if you were over-geared and popping potions, but the same encounter done by any other class is x1,000 easier.

Yea-no.

Wow overcomes the obvious problem to this (If tanks do just as much DPS, why bring DPS?) By adding very specific party-wide buffs for each class. So even if tanks were doing similar dps, (which they only are if they're tanking and getting vengeance) they aren't bringing the diversity of buffs. FF14 basically only has the LB building system, and a moderate STR buff.

Much less, what's the point of rolling a DPS class if you're not better at DPS than a class that takes way more damage? Maybe you're ranged, or maybe your casting spells... But what if you're just a melee? What's the point? Thematically or mechanically?

Seems the solution is clear; add more unique utility to DPS classes. Why is this so complex to understand?

The main reason players roll a DPS class is to have less responsibility than tanking or healing. It's not to do the most damage in the game. I'd further say the class a player chooses as their main usually has more to do with their own psychology -- the image they want to project about themselves -- than it does any game mechanical reason. Thus why the majority of modern MMOs have long since abandoned a harsh adoption of the holy triad, in favor of a more relaxed model.

WoW is one example where tank DPS is on par with a pure DPS class while in a party, but there are also games as old as Ragnarok Online that have always allowed tank characters to deal high damage while tanking. Because the non-tank classes have other utility that tanks do not have, the game is still balanced.

FFXIV focusing just on how much damage, healing or defense a character has as the sole basis for determining what is "balance" is why there is a shortage of tanks.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I mention players who act like they are awesome in unrealistic ways.

The Rock giant with bomb minions is impossible to solo as a PLD as it requires the ability to either burn down the adds or kite them while DPS; neither of which a PLD is equipped to do. I don't even want to hear this crap that you were impossible to kill. You might be able to endure the Malboro or the Cyclops if you were over-geared and popping potions, but the same encounter done by any other class is x1,000 easier.

I always solo'd that as a PLD... lol Maybe you were just doing it wrong. The Marbol was easy, just stun it or use tempered will to remove the bind and walk out of the bad breath aoe. the cyclops was the only one I really had trouble with, due to lack of aoe damage, but I always managed to solo taht too

[therpgfanatic]

I always solo'd that as a PLD... lol Maybe you were just doing it wrong. The Marbol was easy, just stun it or use tempered will to remove the bind and walk out of the bad breath aoe. the cyclops was the only one I really had trouble with, due to lack of aoe damage, but I always managed to solo taht too

Just to ensure we are on the same track this is the encounter you are claiming to solo as a PLD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXzMO6Gv5A

That's a WAR doing the encounter. The only reason they managed to succeed is because the encounter glitched and the bombs didn't target him and rush to explode like they are supposed to.

Here's the same encounter with a BLM who just nukes the bombs when they spawn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOIebRNy6Gc

See the difference? Winning as a tank requires sheer dumb luck. If the bombs had targeted the tank, he'd wiped and there would be nothing he could do about it.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Just to ensure we are on the same track this is the encounter you are claiming to solo as a PLD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXzMO6Gv5A

That's a WAR doing the encounter. The only reason they managed to succeed is because the encounter glitched and the bombs didn't target him and rush to explode like they are supposed to.

Here's the same encounter with a BLM who just nukes the bombs when they spawn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOIebRNy6Gc

See the difference? Winning as a tank requires sheer dumb luck.

You realize you can just... attack each set of bombs as they spawn right? they dont have much hp and you have plenty of time to kill them before they explode.

That WAR just completely ignored them

[therpgfanatic]

You realize you can just... attack each set of bombs as they spawn right? they dont have much hp and you have plenty of time to kill them before they explode.

That WAR just completely ignored them

There isn't enough time for a PLD to single target kill each bomb while also getting wailed on by the golem. Unless they've changed the encounter from when it was released, which I doubt. Even if they did the point still stands that lack of tanking ability doesn't inconvenience DPS classes in the slightest because they can kill enemies before they can kill them, whereas PLD has a lot of difficulty dealing with more than a couple enemies due to low DPS burst and barely existent AoE.

[Kaurie]

The main reason players roll a DPS class is to have less responsibility than tanking or healing. It's not to do the most damage in the game.

Stopped reading there. That is completely false.

As for your note about soloing things, PLD will be superior for some things and weaker on other things. Go figure.

[therpgfanatic]

Stopped reading there. That is completely false.

As for your note about soloing things, PLD will be superior for some things and weaker on other things. Go figure.

No it's not. It's a well established truth from years of research. Character class selection is very dependent on psychological preferences. http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

A PLD had PLENTY of time to single target them down at release, I know cuz I was there. The golem didn't hurt that much lol. AND I was in full vit accessories.

So was I, and you didn't. It was a major point of frustration for a lot of tank players and got complained about all the time. No point further arguing this. Once again, every time someone points out poorly designed game mechanics is not an opportunity for you to talk about how you are Gamer Jesus, capable of any and all feats mere mortal players cannot do.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

No it's not. It's a well established truth from years of research. Character class selection is very dependent on psychological preferences. http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/



So was I, and you didn't. It was a major point of frustration for a lot of tank players and got complained about all the time. No point further arguing this. Once again, every time someone points out poorly designed game mechanics is not an opportunity for you to talk about how you are Gamer Jesus, capable of any and all feats mere mortal players cannot do.

WHERE are your sources that a lot of tanks complained about this? I like how you dismiss me just because I had different results. Maybe you and them just didn't know how to play your jobs properly. I run into lots like you in duty finder as it is.

Those maps were not hard. You should probably switch to a dps if you had trouble with them.