There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

[Launched]

As far as making tanking entertaining, I can tell you that Tanking blows because you AREN'T really that much tankier than your everyday melee dps. You aren't special when that dragoon or monk can face tank a pull without you. End game might be different, but I don't FEEL like a tank, I feel like a crappy melee DPS that has high hate mechanics.

A DRG/MNK might be able to survive a pull without a tank, but that doesn't mean they feel like they could be a tank. They don't generate extra enmity so they can only hold 1 mob at a time. They miss out on almost every single positional and end up doing less DPS, while all 3 tanks gain damage from being targeted. They have way less defence, no strong defensive cooldowns, and bad self healing which means you can't do big pulls and a healer would have to spend more time healing when they could be DPSing. Pull any group of 3 mobs solo and see how long you last on tank vs melee: the tanks will be alive way longer. You don't need to have 10k HP more than a DPS to feel much more tankier, it's all about the right skills.

[Duelle]

Hallowed Ground may have the strongest "effect" from a defensive CD, but due to its obscene CD, it is probably one of the least effective in a fight. It will never reduce as much damage as Rampart, Sentinel or IB over the course of 7 minutes.

That's not exactly a good metric to use. I'll admit that part of the issue with Hallowed Ground is that it's one of those "identity" things that got a pass when they implemented PLD (hence why in the JP version the ability is called Invincible after its FFXI counterpart). Expecting it to be used frequently as is would be beyond unreasonable since it negates all incoming damage with no attached downside (no damage penalty while active, no loss of all aggro upon use).

Now whether people would be willing to lose Hallowed Ground in place of something that can be used more regularly remains to be seen. I spoke out against HG back in 1.23 because I've seen invincibilities get out of hand before, so I'd shed no tears if HG were to leave us.

Frequency of availability makes CDs "better". There is a reason Vengeance and Inner Beast are the "best" defensive tools.

You're ignoring differences in gameplay. PLD is designed as a traditional tank with cooldowns that are supposed to be used during oh shit moments. WAR is designed partly around active mitigation, which is why Inner Beast works the way it does. PLD defensive cooldowns and what WAR has in their place serve very different purposes. Or at least, they're supposed to serve different purposes.

Cover is there for thematic purposes and is almost useless.

Oh if only someone were to come up with a better version of Cover.

Awareness is difficult to calculate in terms of eHP and you can never predict what damage it prevented. Unless it's used in a scenario where crits are 100% guaranted.

Agreed. This was a bad idea from the start and IMO has always been a waste of a slot. The only fight that justified its existence was Shiva EX when in bow mode. Then with 3.0 WAR gets more mileage out of it because of how it negates the downside of Raw Intuition.

Sheltron shoots itself in the foot with its timing and bosses not stopping auto-attacks while casting potentially popping the block with an auto only so you eat that 23k buster and blocks never precede crits. Again, damage type limited CD.

I think part of the problem here is that doing anything else with Sheltron invalidates Bulwark on some level.

It could have easily been a "block every attack for the next 10 seconds" type of ability, but at that point they might as well just redesign Bulwark to work like this and replace Sheltron with something else. That might not be a bad idea, actually...

Doesn't matter if you can pretend to be able to heal yourself for 1200 potency and or pad your HP by 10% if the reaction time for those is retardedly long. Paladin doing anything trying to cast those will first have to wait 2.5 seconds GCD, then cast for 3 seconds.

This is an obvious knock on Clemency, so I'll present to you the choice. You either get hybrid utility with its inherent downsides/opportunity cost (and Clemency to be anywhere near balanced absolutely needs to have an opportunity cost if it can be used on party members), or you get an instant self heal on a 20-25s cooldown.

The reason there is a blatant problem with PLD: PLD is taxed by lower DPS and 0 raid DPS contribution for an imaginary defensive advantage that does not exist, nor is needed in the current meta.

This doesn't paint the whole picture. The truth of the matter is that PLD was designed around a certain paradigm and playstyle, but the game has made that paradigm ineffective partly through developer decisions (DPS race-focused encounters) and partly through the player-created metagame (circumventing tank staples by being able to pump out more damage than intended for a tank via WAR triple Fel Cleaves et al).

The issue was so deep that SE had to change the tank's main damage stat, re-evaluating and looking at tank traits, AND shifting from sever DPS checks to mechanic checks in the upcoming savage instead of just simply buffing PLD and/or nerfing the other tanks.

Depending on how far they went with the changes (really wish they would talk about this in detail instead of making us wait for patch notes), this is either a step in the right direction or a band-aid on a bullet wound.

[Violette]

The main point was addressing the lack of tanks... if it's not fun to level a tank, because you feel unimportant, then there will be less tanks to play. It's just one more thing that needs to be addressed and addressed appropriately.

......Maybe you don't find it fun, but as a warrior and a dark knight, from level 30 I felt extremely important and powerful.
Paladin just gets the shit end of the stick because Flash doesn't do damage and Paladin's damage all round is kinda meh.
Even when I leveled paladin back in 2.0 I found myself feeling important once I got shield oath.

You're ignoring differences in gameplay. PLD is designed as a traditional tank with cooldowns that are supposed to be used during oh shit moments. WAR is designed partly around active mitigation, which is why Inner Beast works the way it does. PLD defensive cooldowns and what WAR has in their place serve very different purposes. Or at least, they're supposed to serve different purposes.

Building on this, we see a vast issue in the fact that there is only 2 instances in end game raiding where continuous mitigation is required, that being A2S jagds and A2S final wave. All other damage instances are generally <6 seconds, meaning warrior's can IB everything, making it a better Shadowskin/Rampart due to healing+way smaller cooldown. Can double IB and it still has a shorter cooldown than either (rampart 90 vs Infuriate 60).

Oh if only someone were to come up with a better version of Cover.

Cover has it's uses in fight where mitigation and utility are more than damage increase/decrease, i.e. A2S or even T13 where it was vitality important to clearing strategies. If we saw Cover absorbing magic damage as well, it would be a lot more useful. And if Cover damage didn't go through HG, it'd be A LOT MORE USEFUL WHY SE WHY DOES IT IGNORE HG

Agreed. This was a bad idea from the start and IMO has always been a waste of a slot. The only fight that justified its existence was Shiva EX when in bow mode. Then with 3.0 WAR gets more mileage out of it because of how it negates the downside of Raw Intuition.

Oppressor's also have a higher than average crit rating, and every little bit counts. If it also gave back say, TP/crit negated.....that'd be cool.

I think part of the problem here is that doing anything else with Sheltron invalidates Bulwark on some level.

It could have easily been a "block every attack for the next 10 seconds" type of ability, but at that point they might as well just redesign Bulwark to work like this and replace Sheltron with something else. That might not be a bad idea, actually...

Block next magic damage anyone?

The reason there is a blatant problem with PLD: PLD is taxed by lower DPS and 0 raid DPS contribution for an imaginary defensive advantage that does not exist, nor is needed in the current meta.

I couldn't be bother going to get your name sorry, so you'll have to forgive me.
Paladin's do have a defensive advantage in their shield, plain and simple. Given it only works on physical damage, that's the problem. People need to stop perpetuating the whole "Paladin isn't tankier". Yes it is, against physical damage. Out classes Dark Knight and Warrior, because of the shield reduction + Shelltron + Bulwark + STR down. It's the same reason Dark Knight's have an advantage on Magic Damage, int down + Dark Mind. The only reason these don't matter is because A2S is somewhat face-rolly and as mentioned above, high damage instances being <6 seconds means Warrior's IB usage trumps all.

[Desthro]

A DRG/MNK might be able to survive a pull without a tank ... They have way less defence, no strong defensive cooldowns, and bad self healing ... a healer would have to spend more time healing when they could be DPSing.

Generally I agree with you. The thing is, there's very little incentive to be a tank when basic party mechanics go out the window, and GOOD tanks are hard to come by because you don't have to be a good tank anymore because the "casual" content is extremely forgiving. Too forgiving.

Also, healers should be healing primarily and DPSing rarely, if they have time to truly DPS, then the content is too soft on the tanks and/or party.

[Violette]

I don't mean to sound... well... how this is going to sound no matter how I word it, but PLD needs all that extra mitigation (which is not as much as people make it out to be given how retardedly long its recast times are (short recast-high uptime CDs are ideal in A2S, imo) and the fact that there is no true TB in A2S for Sheltron to be anything other than a guaranteed stray block from an AA) due to how slow everything dies with its lack of AoE. You could argue even that DRK is better due to the fact that the more targets there are, the more powerful its sustain is (MP and self-healing).

Wrong is the word you're looking for.

Most groups cleared A2S that first week using a paladin (and continued to do so for a while), because Paladin gave the mitigation Dark Knight did not have. Shelltron can block the spider boom boom in a pinch (hey man take what you can get), but even mitigating the Jagd's AA can be important in progression.

Which is once again, where I'm coming from. From a progression stand point, in ilvl180 gear with a few 190 pieces, paladins have the shield+bulwark+cover+HG made all the difference. Nowadays we can cheese it with dark dance + sustain + living dead, because we've the ilvl to cruise past real damage via sustain. But before then, Paladins were MUCH stronger than Dark Knights.
And the DRK aoe compared to Paladin AoE was not as much as you make it out to be, where in the end clever cover usage (on the warrior during gobwidow phases), HG>LD meaning Bene didn't need to be saved past a certain point, str down affecting everything and having a summoner (the key part of A2S progression) would basically equal it out.

Just remember, one of (if not THE first) the first A2S clear was done with a SCHOLAR driving, because the paladin provided so much mitigation the whm could solo heal.

Generally I agree with you. The thing is, there's very little incentive to be a tank when basic party mechanics go out the window, and GOOD tanks are hard to come by because you don't have to be a good tank anymore because the "casual" content is extremely forgiving. Too forgiving.

Also, healers should be healing primarily and DPSing rarely, if they have time to truly DPS, then the content is too soft on the tanks and/or party.

Mate if you want to complain about this, wrong thread. If you don't like playing a tank in FFXIV, don't play a tank (or play a war). There is plenty of incentive to be a tank (controlling the flow of the dungeon, able to prioritize the targets, doing mad deeps). If those incentives are not for you, I suggest trying something else out.

As for healers, once again you're playing too casual here. Healers maximize dps, like how tanks maximize dps. Because this is not wow. You're not just one dimensional, a meat shield or a cure bot. You want to clear, you gotta pull your weight and do your best in all things.
If healers have time to truly dps, it's because we've learnt the fight inside out and know when it's safe to do so. Because for 15 seconds, that regen+ fairy + my defensive cooldowns will be enough for us the squeeze out another 20-30 dps, which could make all the difference.

[Desthro]

Paladin's do have a defensive advantage in their shield, plain and simple. Given it only works on physical damage, that's the problem. People need to stop perpetuating the whole "Paladin isn't tankier". Yes it is, against physical damage. Out classes Dark Knight and Warrior, because of the shield reduction + Shelltron + Bulwark + STR down. It's the same reason Dark Knight's have an advantage on Magic Damage, int down + Dark Mind. The only reason these don't matter is because A2S is somewhat face-rolly and as mentioned above, high damage instances being <6 seconds means Warrior's IB usage trumps all.

All the more reason to normalize magical and physical damage so tank defenses protect against it all. That way each tank is always relevant.

[Aaliyahrose]

Paladins should be much more defensive than the other 2 tanks though and help provide more mitigation for the party.

Paladins already do this. They have Divine Veil, Stoneskin and a STR down debuff to put on the enemy.
Try to support you healer using Clemency or stoneskin for as long as you can and see how solo healing for the healer goes.
Sheltron and riot blade to restore your mana. PLD has always been built around being the best defensive tank. To be creative with it adds more fun to tanking.

[Violette]

All the more reason to normalize magical and physical damage so tank defenses protect against it all. That way each tank is always relevant.

Sounds like a boring ass idea that doesn't deal with any problems and only makes the game less interesting.

Paladins already do this. They have Divine Veil, Stoneskin and a STR down debuff to put on the enemy.
Try to support you healer using Clemency or stoneskin for as long as you can and see how solo healing for the healer goes.
Sheltron and riot blade to restore your mana. PLD has always been built around being the best defensive tank. To be creative with it adds more fun to tanking.

Not mentioned: SHIELD, Cover.

Though as should be mentioned, pld do have the most defensive utility, except Clemency/SS get interrupted by bosses and cannot be used as OT because lolpld no damage ywudut@k it as opposed to war/drk. If there was less dps, more mitigation/mechanic/healing checks, paladins would be better in end game. Paladins have all the defensive utility you could dream of, just no damage so loltr@sh

[Syzygian]

All the more reason to normalize magical and physical damage so tank defenses protect against it all. That way each tank is always relevant.

"DRK is only gud against magic lol"

"WAH, let Sheltron block magic!"

[Aaliyahrose]

I think part of the problem here is that doing anything else with Sheltron invalidates Bulwark on some level.

It could have easily been a "block every attack for the next 10 seconds" type of ability, but at that point they might as well just redesign Bulwark to work like this and replace Sheltron with something else. That might not be a bad idea, actually...

The Sheltron ability was designed block attacks that require timing i.e. Thordan's cleve attack or A3S hand swipe. These of which do enough damage that cause healers to throw out a Cure 2 or Lustrate. It also restores mana, so you can continue to Stoneskin/Clemency you or a party member.