Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust need some fixing.

[Morzy]

Drg was a lot harder in 2.x imo because of the HT flank requirement.

Dont get me wrong monk sucks too i mean when i leaned the appropiate positional requirement i literally said eff that but i got through it. Not saying its worse than this i agree the potency loss is crap and thats a lot to lose over 1 position.

But someone had a point. Drg didnt have much utility pre hw and after the drg nerf it looked stupid easy imo. But now every freaking raid wants a drg their dps support is huge so now SE has a reason to up the difficulty and after you got that nerf and the utility in HW idk how you can complain.

[Sekundessounet]

You still need to hit HT from the flank, otherwise you're bad.

They just change it so you get the buff if you're forced to hit on the back/front because of mechanics. Like Twin Snakes.

[JackFross]

why did we resurrect a thread that was made back when FaC/WT were 100/290 potency, rather than the current 200/290, back when the positional randomness was actually a serious issue and then continue to discuss a topic that has absolutely no issue in the current raid landscape

It adds a dynamic element to the class with minimal (though present) failure punishment
Not everyone likes that dynamic element
And that's okay.

/thread


That said, yeah, HT used to be 100/170 with the buff only happening under the 170 chance. Impulse Drive used to be 100/180 with the combo only continuing under the 180 chance. CT and Phleb were also weaker before the same change that fixed those two issues during Final Coil, when Kaliya made every Dragoon rage-quit the game and scream obscenities at their raid members.

Though this also has no bearing on the non-issue of FaC/WT

[Arkeband]

It does add difficulty, because you now have to plan ahead; you have to put yourself in a position where you can move to the rear/flank of the boss in the time it takes for your GCD to come back up, and plus it'll catch you out if you use jump before the 4th.

The luck is the same as every other positional you have. You'll miss your Chaos Thrusts in Ravana Ex like you'll miss your 4ths there.

You have 2 GCD's to get in position for your CT to hit its positional, whereas you have 1 GCD to get into position for your Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw.

I don't think the idea of positional requirements are inherently bad, but I do think DRG's HW skills were designed poorly. For instance, to even use your Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw abilities, you need to have up BotD and also "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust". So you technically can't ever cast Wheeling Thrust without it being enhanced first. Eh? This is at odds with your 1-50 abilities which allow you to use abilities out of combo sequence.

[Jamillion]

My only problem with wheeling thrust and fang and claw is that having both of them just takes up a skill that could have been unique instead of just being two carbon copy skills with only the positional difference.

[Erudito]

Back in the ARR days, I loved playing Dragoon when I wanted to go burst melee on my enemies. It was fun, I knew the rotation and could deal DPS with the best of the lot.

Now in Heavensward and the job at 60, I avoid it like the plague. The addition of the 4th tier combo, to me, disrupts the flow of the job too much. The skill bloat does little to help its case.
Sure, the rotation makes sense and the DPS is phenomenal on single targets, but it feels so forced when its time to do Wheeling Thrust or Fand and Claw. The loss of that much DPS on positional RNG is rather large too.

It might be my personal opinion but I just don't like the 4th combo at all.

[Tilgung]

This is at odds with your 1-50 abilities which allow you to use abilities out of combo sequence.

I wish they'd get rid of this, nothing sucks more than fat fingering the wrong ability and watching your DPS tank.

[JackFross]

This is at odds with your 1-50 abilities which allow you to use abilities out of combo sequence.

Fire IV, Blizzard IV, Iron Jaws, Empyreal Arrow, and Deathflare all would like to say hi. None of these skills conform to the limitations brought up by that Job's rise from 1-50, yet all are absolutely in-line with a natural progression of the Job. Same for FaC/WT.

And the "you have 1 GCD to get in position for FaC after a CT" would be totally valid if we were, say, Ninjas or Monks and our GCD was like 2.1 seconds. But, uh, we're not. We have a comfy 2.4s GCD which gives more than enough time to move in position, hit Jump (longest animation lock) and still hit FaC without any GCD delay. So you're basically shaking your fist at a non-issue while trying to conflate it into an issue to get people to sympathize with you over this horrible situation that is negligibly bad.

My only problem with wheeling thrust and fang and claw is that having both of them just takes up a skill that could have been unique instead of just being two carbon copy skills with only the positional difference.

I would agree with you, but I've made my point clear before about the fact that there is absolutely nothing -at all- that 3.x Dragoon needs from another skill. Our DPS is barely off Monk with far better utility. You can't give us more of either dps OR utility without completely eclipsing Monk. So what would it be? What could we possibly get in that slot that would NOT cause us to outclass Monk while still being unique and different? I have never seen anyone offer a suggestion that fits these qualifications.

The loss of that much DPS on positional RNG is rather large too.

Back in ARR days, Dragoon was braindead. I could do every piece of content in the game half-asleep and still perform just as well (or sometimes BETTER) than when I was fully awake. It was boring and rote by the end of 2.5. I was tired of it, and it's been my favorite Job since before 2.0 even launched. The addition of the 4th hits rejuvenated the class. It's no more difficult than it was before, but it requires you to be awake when you play it.

The loss of the positional is quite literally 500 damage. In a 12-minute fight (as is the norm in this game), a loss of 500 damage is a loss of fewer than 1 dps (about 0.69 dps) in the current landscape, and that's at full 210 with Thordan spear.



It's okay if people don't like the change. You're not required to. But I'll argue to the death that it's directly in line with the previous Dragoon methodology from 2.x. So if you don't like it, Dragoon's not for you. There's plenty of other Jobs out there.

[Anubis_Nephthys]

DRG positionals are easy.
There is no problem.
The 100 to 200 missed positional potency buff was for bad DRGs

[Sekundessounet]

DRG positionals are easy.
There is no problem.
The 100 to 200 missed positional potency buff was for bad DRGs

Hitting a 4th when facing Ravana EX isn't being a bad DRG.