The Illusion of Choice

[Kaurie]

First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

I don't think there has to be 1 perfect build with everything else being much worse. I think builds can tackle different strengths and weaknesses. These can be strengths and weaknesses of both the players and of the content. For example, a BLM build that is similar to now with very high damage output theoretically, but punishes greatly for movement/latency/mess ups. There could be a build that is more forgiving of those things, but has a less high output. In this sense build 1 is better theoretically and by the top-tier players, but build 2 will provide a higher damage output for the average player.

Further, if you are to suggest that having 1 optimal build is enough reason to not have builds, then what is the point in having rotations? There is one optimal rotation that is not spelled out for you in the game. You're either doing it right or doing it wrong. In this sense, wouldn't it be best to get rid of rotations and simply have 1 button that performs all of your actions for you? This would remove the choice presented of pressing skills in a different order, and then no one would be playing incorrectly any longer. For myself, I think that reasoning isn't sound and takes away from the fun of the game. The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun.

Ultimately, I realize that this game will likely never have specs and builds. It's very unfortunate, because I find them fun. I keep trying new MMO's as they launch in hopes that they will replace FFXIV so I could enjoy this. However, each game I have tried so far has significant meta issues that are game-breaking (more-so than not having build diversity). Such as Wildstar and their interrupt meta and Blade and Soul with their lack of healers and chaotic grouped gameplay. I am strongly considering a return to WoW, but returning now doesn't make sense - I got the 100 boost and was just confused as to what was going on after not having played since Cata. I've pre-purchased Legion and may move to that come launch.

That said, as people continue to provide feedback and suggestions to the game, I'd personally like to see more well thought out counters than "This will just provide an illusion of choice /thread". I find that argument is not very sound, as is often said as if it's obvious and enough on its own. The issue really boils down to, some people enjoy that choice and some people don't.

[Malzian]

Further, if you are to suggest that having 1 optimal build is enough reason to not have builds, then what is the point in having rotations? There is one optimal rotation that is not spelled out for you in the game. You're either doing it right or doing it wrong. In this sense, wouldn't it be best to get rid of rotations and simply have 1 button that performs all of your actions for you? This would remove the choice presented of pressing skills in a different order, and then no one would be playing incorrectly any longer. For myself, I think that reasoning isn't sound and takes away from the fun of the game. The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun.

Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time. In all honesty, the concept of a skill rotation isn't even all that common in many previous MMOs because there are very few 'traditional' MMOs that feature a GCD for skills.

Your rotation can be changed on the fly, it can be altered for a reaction to a momentary situation so that you can perform to the best of your abilities and is inherently flexible. You can't stop in the middle of a fight and 'respec' for one mechanic or another, and even if you could you likely wouldn't because the time you spend in the interface is time you're not focused on the fight. But even in that... you have a mathematically 'best rotation', and while it is flexible within itself you will still get called out if you mess it up badly or don't do it at all per the famously mentioned 'Ice Mage' who only casts Blizzard spells.

[Kaurie]

Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time. In all honesty, the concept of a skill rotation isn't even all that common in many previous MMOs because there are very few 'traditional' MMOs that feature a GCD for skills.

Your rotation can be changed on the fly, it can be altered for a reaction to a momentary situation so that you can perform to the best of your abilities and is inherently flexible. You can't stop in the middle of a fight and 'respec' for one mechanic or another, and even if you could you likely wouldn't because the time you spend in the interface is time you're not focused on the fight. But even in that... you have a mathematically 'best rotation', and while it is flexible within itself you will still get called out if you mess it up badly or don't do it at all per the famously mentioned 'Ice Mage' who only casts Blizzard spells.

Indeed, hence this part of my post, "The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun." I get that they are different; however, the reasoning that there is "one best option" can be applied to rotations. As that doesn't mean rotations should go, there must be another reason why having builds is not desired.

i.e. You could choose a rotation of only Ice Spells as a BLM in today's game and everyone will hate you for it, or you can choose a poor build and everyone will hate you for it. Why is option one OK to have in the game and option two is not?

After thinking about it last night, I realized SE has done this before in FFXI. This is what choice looks like though.....

That image is pretty blurry and I can't really read specifics. Is this image evidence that choice is good or bad and why/how, I am unsure?

Also, I'd like to point out that just because 1 game did customization or choice 1 way doesn't mean every game will be the exact same. There are lots of MMO's out there and the majority of them have their own systems for customization and build choice.

[Iagainsti]

That image is pretty blurry and I can't really read specifics. Is this image evidence that choice is good or bad and why/how, I am unsure?

Also, I'd like to point out that just because 1 game did customization or choice 1 way doesn't mean every game will be the exact same. There are lots of MMO's out there and the majority of them have their own systems for customization and build choice.

Admin definitely shrank it, but it is an example of SE and a prime example of the illusion of choice. I'd hope that any system they devise for FFXIV that granted more customization would differ from this.

[Alahra]

Admin definitely shrank it, but it is an example of SE and a prime example of the illusion of choice. I'd hope that any system they devise for FFXIV that granted more customization would differ from this.

I don't really know that I would consider the Skillchain system customization, at least not in the traditional sense. It's more of a battle system, not unlike the Limit Break bar here. It does illustrate the illusion of choice fairly well, as you mentioned, but there are other examples in FFXI (from the Merit Points and Job Points systems) that are better examples of how SE could potentially do customization in FFXIV.

[Reynhart]

Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time.

What's the point of having 3 tanks, 3 healers, 2 ranged DPS, 2 Casters and 3 Melee ?
And probably more jobs incoming in the next expansion...

I've gotten called out and kicked from Fractal for not pulling the whole damned first room because the healer was undergeared and I was worried about heals, so don't go telling me it's not something that doesn't happen outside of World First Prog.

Boo hoo...let me cry on the 15 seconds it took for you to get a new group with less stupid people...without even mentionning that is has absolutely nothing to do with how you may have built your character...
I've been kicked out of Syrcus for staying in Sword Oath...as an OT...when no add was there. Will you tell me that they should remove stances ?
And I'm pretty sure you could tell more stupid stories about being kicked such as "I've been kicked out of an english group because I spoke german, so don't tell me that elitism is just in endgame..."

'Okay, one has a fantastic build with great skills and the other's build is complete crap, but I'm not telling you which'...

Again...why ? Why do you automatically thinks that one build will be great and the others complete crap ?
The game is far too simple in its design to be impossible to balance almost properly. You can't make a valid point with such a blatant overstatement.