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  1. #51
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Cerberus
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    Reaper Lv 90
    Even if it is it's not as if Eorzea is a stranger to that sort of mentality. Heck, pretty much every City State thinks way too highly of themselves and if we take PvP into account...they can't even work together sensibly at times. Sharlayan is implied - at least in the AST quests - to be similarly self righteous. Ala Mhigo would not doubt have continued to try and take over Eorzea if not for Garlemald's intervention. I'm also not entirely sure that life would be much worse under Garlean rule when discrimination, poverty and class warfare plagues...pretty much every corner of Eorzea anyway.

    Eorzea is simply the 'protagonist' and thinks much too highly of itself. Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.
    (1)

  2. #52
    Player
    ChazNatlo's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    510
    Character
    Mirasa Thume
    World
    Hyperion
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    Arcanist Lv 85
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Eorzea is simply the 'protagonist' and thinks much too highly of itself. Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.
    Considering that the people who were perpetrating the Ishgardian atrocities are either thousands of years dead, dead recently by our hands, or probably going to get theirs for throwing a child off a skyscraper, and those who benefited from it are attempting to make reparations, while the Garlean atrocities are still in recent memory, as you say, I'm not quite sure I see the point. We are, for the most part, sided with the victims of these atrocities ((The Ishgardian rank and file were as much a victim of the Archbishop's machinations as anyone else)). And Lolrito, whom sticks to us like a bad rash.
    (3)

  3. #53
    Player
    Hinoto-no-Ryuji's Avatar
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    Ryuji Hinoto
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    Tonberry
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    Monk Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Even if it is it's not as if Eorzea is a stranger to that sort of mentality. Heck, pretty much every City State thinks way too highly of themselves and if we take PvP into account...they can't even work together sensibly at times. Sharlayan is implied - at least in the AST quests - to be similarly self righteous.
    And yet, no single city-state has sought to expand its borders via conquest Just Because (save the Ala Mhigo of a century past, but I'll get to that). Not even Sharlayan, snooty superiority complex or not. That's the major difference. Sure, the others are a petty, squabbling brood, but Garlemald is actively conquering and subjugating and thus makes them a villainous faction that needs to be stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    I'm also not entirely sure that life would be much worse under Garlean rule when discrimination, poverty and class warfare plagues...pretty much every corner of Eorzea anyway.
    Really? I am. We know exactly what to expect, thanks to Ala Mhigo. See (2) below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Ala Mhigo would not doubt have continued to try and take over Eorzea if not for Garlemald's intervention.
    (1) The Autumn War was a century ago. All evidence I've seen points to Ala Mhigo more or less keeping to themselves ever since.

    (2) Look, I don't think Ala Mhigo sounds like it was an especially brilliant place pre-Gaius, but things aren't exactly GOOD under Garlean rule either (forced conscription, routine murder exercises to keep people in line, second-and-lower-class-citizens, etc). Plus it's the foothold of an expansionist-for-expansionism's-sake empire. Whatever Ala Mhigo was, its liberation is a necessary step in culling the ambitions of the Garleans. We can discuss their former Mad King or whatever when the time comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.
    Nothing that Ishgard has done has been on the scale of the Garlean expansion. Nothing. Yes, religious fanaticism played out there much like it did in real life; yes, what the first Thordan did was unquestionably an act of war; yes, Ishgardian leadership deliberately perpetrated a false historical narrative that led to the suffering of its own citizens (and plenty of Dravanians besides). However, Niddhog's own crusade against Ishgard is as much to blame (what, you think the state of war could have been sustained for a thousand years if he had not sought to prolong it?), many of the perpetrators of the Ishgardian atrocities are dead and gone, and motions are being made to forgive and move forward.

    And speaking of that - factions of both sides are ready to unconditionally lay down the sword and just let it end. Call me when Garlemald is ready to unconditionally pull out and leave.

    Look, if you can provide a reason (beyond keeping that war economy a-rollin') for Garlemald's expansion, I'll gain some sympathy to their aims; if you can show an example of one thing (beyond themselves) that they've left better than they found it, I'll join your chorus now. But there isn't one. They've left everything worse off in a campaign that is purely selfish - and, by the way, that's not bad/morally simplistic writing, that's incredibly true to life. Expansionist empires just don't tend to leave the areas they conquer better off for those who live there. We've seen this countless times across history.
    (2)
    Last edited by Hinoto-no-Ryuji; 02-04-2016 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #54
    Player
    Belhi's Avatar
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    J'talhdi Belhi
    World
    Bismarck
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    Conjurer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Ala Mhigo would not doubt have continued to try and take over Eorzea if not for Garlemald's intervention.
    What are you basing this on? You have said it several times. Ala Mhigo hasn't invaded anyone in 100 years. The Autumn War was literally ages ago. There is quite possibly no one still alive who was alive during the Autumn War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    I'm also not entirely sure that life would be much worse under Garlean rule when discrimination, poverty and class warfare plagues...pretty much every corner of Eorzea anyway.

    Eorzea is simply the 'protagonist' and thinks much too highly of itself. Garlemald has committed atrocities, yes, but it's a recent affair. Ishgard has been doing it for a thousand years - yet stands to be forgiven despite that.
    We know that people in Ala Mhigo were very badly treated. We have met a guy who the Garlean Military forced into prostitution for the soldiers (a reference to comfort woman in WW2 probably.) It was so traumatic for them they leaped to their deaths rather than get recaptured by Garlean soldiers. We know youth were taken forcefully from their families, brainwashed and then made to kill their family members.

    Lets add to that that we know the ranks of the class system that exists in Garlean society and people in occupied lands don't even have the rank or rights of citizens. That doesn't give encouraging signs of how garlean occupation would be an improvement. Do you really think all the refugees are living in slums and starving outside Ul'dah when its great back home?

    Eorzea is the protagonist because they aren't attacking anyone. Garlemald is. Garlemald is starting the fights. If a guy walks up unprovoked and starts punching you they are the one in the wrong. Plus its the fact that the atrocities that Garlemald is committing are a recent affair that's the issue. If they stopped committing those atrocities it would probably make better sense to be forgiving them. Its worth noting that Ishgard isn't and hasn't exactly gotten off scott free for what has happened in its past.
    (3)

  5. #55
    Player
    SuperFlorinjin's Avatar
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    Ador Kable
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    Famfrit
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    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji View Post
    From what I've read, they first encountered Primals in Doma, right? And it's Primals that made that war as nasty as it was, so that's probably where the fanaticism against them specifically comes from.
    No I'm pretty sure that these days the Primals are confined to Eorzea. During the lead up to Leviathan Yugiri mentions that there are old tales of Primals in Doma, but nothing like that has been seen for a very long time. That's why she wanted to help against Leviathan, so she could see what kind of threat they really were.
    (0)

  6. #56
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Cerberus
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    Reaper Lv 90
    @Belhi:

    Right, but like I was saying that's horrible but it's no worse than a lot of the stuff that Eorzeans themselves have done in recent years. To a lesser extent, perhaps, but Garlemald's invasion is very much a recent thing. Some Garlean soldiers mistreating prisoners is unfortunate but...it's very, very likely that the same thing happens on Eorzea's side of the fence too. Garlemald is a pretty blatant reference to Rome. Rome was one of the most civilised, advanced and influential societies to ever exist on our planet. Even to this very day it's influence can be found in our day to day lives.


    Did it have major problems? Sure, but the quality of life - even for the 'lesser' citizens was arguably much better than what they'd have endured if left to fend for themselves. I don't believe for a second that Eorzea is necessarily 'better' for the average Eorzean. Sure, they may have their 'freedom' but in many cases that in itself is just an illusion. They'd still be bound by poverty and having to deal with all manner of grotesque monsters the moment they step outside of a settlement...

    I'm not excusing the Garleans as being pure and righteous. I'm stating that people are rather selective about how they paint them when compared to Eorzeans.
    (0)

  7. #57
    Player
    Hinoto-no-Ryuji's Avatar
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    Ryuji Hinoto
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    Tonberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFlorinjin View Post
    No I'm pretty sure that these days the Primals are confined to Eorzea. During the lead up to Leviathan Yugiri mentions that there are old tales of Primals in Doma, but nothing like that has been seen for a very long time. That's why she wanted to help against Leviathan, so she could see what kind of threat they really were.
    Yugiri may never have seen them, and I may have been wrong in saying they popped up in Doma, but Othard's Primals are indeed part of the backstory. From Moose's "The Rise and Fall of the White Raven":

    The Empire spread all but unchallenged as their airships and machina conquered first the rest of Ilsabard and then the majority of the eastern continent of Othard. It was in the east that the Garleans first encountered the awe-inspiringly destructive capabilities of beings known as primals, otherworldly entities whose physical presence in Hydaelyn is maintained through the consumption of aether, a substance thought to be the source of all life and magic.
    And, as it goes on to say:

    With a critical foothold in Eorzea firmly established, Garlemald was prepared to begin their conquest in earnest. Ancient mythology revered Silvertear Lake, deep in Aldenard’s forest region of Mor Dhona, as a profound focus of spiritual energy, earning it such attributions as the source of all water and the fount of all magic. Measurements of the land’s aetheric flow led Garlean researchers to believe that the area was a massive convergence of aether, if not the center of a global network. If the beast tribes of Eorzea learned to utilize this abundance to summon their eikon gods, the Empire would be drawn into another prolonged and onerous campaign against primals.
    So, yeah, Primals may be an Eorzean thing now, but the Empire has encountered and fought against them before, and even based their entire Eorzean campaign off those past encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    Sure, but the quality of life - even for the 'lesser' citizens was arguably much better than what they'd have endured if left to fend for themselves.
    You'll have to give a source on that. We have nobody, inside or outside the game's world, who has spoken to life under Garlean rule being better (just that King Theodric sucked a bunch). Nor is it "some Garlean soldiers mistreating prisoners" - everything about their attitude towards the conquered, from conscription to routine daily execution to prostitution, screams of official military policy (at the very least of the XIVth Legion, which was one of the Empire's most celebrated until Gaius effectively went rogue; I don't imagine their actions are uncondoned). The Garlean attitude towards conquered nations and their people is also clear, from Rhitatyn's entire backstory to that one book in Gubal.
    (2)
    Last edited by Hinoto-no-Ryuji; 02-04-2016 at 04:39 PM.

  8. #58
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Cerberus
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    Reaper Lv 90
    There's no source, it's mere speculation. I imagine it stands to reason though - because much like Roman society the influence of Garlemald can be felt everywhere. Eorzean has entered a technological age and embraced magitek itself to some extent...so imagine what it must be like for the average citizen of Garlemald to have access to all sorts of advanced technology? Assuming they do, of course, but it strikes me as very likely. It's why we really need more information as to what Garlemald is actually like as well as what the conquered regions are actually like.


    I mean, obviously the people who flee Garlean strongholds have nothing pleasant to say about the Garleans but we have yet to hear Garlemald's side of things. All the statements made by those who fled are subject to bias. There's likely a partially justifiable reason for acting the way that they do - and I've long speculated that Doma was razed as a result of Domans slaughtering innocent Garlean civilians in their little rising. That doesn't justify genocide, of course, but the game's writers very rarely make events black or white in regards to morality.
    (0)

  9. #59
    Player
    VargasVermillion's Avatar
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    Ul'dah
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    851
    Character
    Val Vermillion
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    We don't necessarily know if they are expanding for expansions sake, I'll imagine we'll get to garlemalds history at some point and it'll probably be a little more grey than simply the most dominant power on ilsabard decides to become a warmongering empire because they can. For all we know garlemald could of had a history of being invaded by it's neighbors because of it's obvious weakness before the technological revolution started by Solus. It does mention on solus's bio on the site that the people elected him emperor so there's something to think about.
    (1)

  10. #60
    Player
    ChazNatlo's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Mirasa Thume
    World
    Hyperion
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    Arcanist Lv 85
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    There's no source, it's mere speculation. I imagine it stands to reason though - because much like Roman society the influence of Garlemald can be felt everywhere. Eorzean has entered a technological age and embraced magitek itself to some extent...so imagine what it must be like for the average citizen of Garlemald to have access to all sorts of advanced technology? Assuming they do, of course, but it strikes me as very likely. It's why we really need more information as to what Garlemald is actually like as well as what the conquered regions are actually like.


    I mean, obviously the people who flee Garlean strongholds have nothing pleasant to say about the Garleans but we have yet to hear Garlemald's side of things. All the statements made by those who fled are subject to bias. There's likely a partially justifiable reason for acting the way that they do - and I've long speculated that Doma was razed as a result of Domans slaughtering innocent Garlean civilians in their little rising. That doesn't justify genocide, of course, but the game's writers very rarely make events black or white in regards to morality.
    To the first point. Every Roman citizen had an improved life, arguably. You just can't forget that they drew a distinction between citizen and living breathing human. Rome survived on the backs of THOUSANDS of slaves, whose lives were very much not better than back before Rome took over and made them slaves. I have more to add, but I'll get back to this one on a later post.

    To the second, Garlemald is going to have a hell of a battle explaining their side of randomized murder, Brainwashing and forced prostitution.

    That said, there IS a close symbolism that you are missing between one of the city states and Garlemald. Limsa also has a current issue with reckless expansionism causing the native population to react violently to said expansionism.
    (2)

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