If tank damage is now based on VIT, why do healers still have Cleric Stance?

[Andrea]

Well why do we want "risks" when swapping to dps? dpsing instead of healing it's enough risk as it is, how about easing it up?

I just thought I'd say that No. If they removed cleric stance there would be no risk to DPSing at all as a healer. Unless they made cast times like 4x as long as they are now.

Also some may think that the healer dpsing threads are annoying now, if they made this change then there would be no excuses for healers not DPSing. It would become the 100% expected from a healer.

[Kietsu]

Well why do we want "risks" when swapping to dps? dpsing instead of healing it's enough risk as it is, how about easing it up? There is "hard" and "artificially hard" and beside the cleric stance debacle, I don't really see a big issue if MND was a lone stat for healers. Again, only after some proper balancing.

Because of the concept of risk versus reward - and the concept of a skill ceiling. Just like melee DPS need to land positionals and use oGCDs optimally, healing DPS requires you to understand when to be in cleric and when not to be. If Cleric (or its cooldown, really) were removed, it would lower the skill ceiling of healing. That's not the case for the VIT change, as it doesn't change that tanks need to know when to be in each stance. (If anything, the VIT change probably lowers the skill ceiling for healers more than tanks, as it means tanks won't need to be topped up quite as much for moderately powerful busters.)

[KaitlanKela]

No, Cleric Stance is there to allow Healers to meet the DpS requirements of Solo content without being forced to party like they are in other MMOs. Healers stance dancing in duties is the result of unintended emergent gameplay.

Here we go...

[Neophyte]

I don't get this 'should a healer dps or not'-debate...

1) In almost every fight (except during boss' reflect mechanics like Hellsclaw's Counter Manoeuvre or necessary dps-stops) every player should use every 1.x-2.x seconds (depending on his GCD duration) one of his GCD (in a usefull way).
2) damage should be dealt in CS, healing should occur out of CS.
3) Overheal should be avoided.

If you don't follow these rules you're either bad, lazy or new/not experienced.

[Madjames]

All I know is that a Priest in Wow did not DPS if you were a healer, nor did any other healing class. If you did, you lost your mana quickly. I will not play a healer in this game until they fix this dps/healer broken system. If I am a healer I am doing so to HEAL not DPS.

[Kaze3434]

All I know is that a Priest in Wow did not DPS if you were a healer, nor did any other healing class. If you did, you lost your mana quickly. I will not play a healer in this game until they fix this dps/healer broken system. If I am a healer I am doing so to HEAL not DPS.

because if one game does it one way, they all should./s
you can continue to be a sub par healer.

[Voltyblast]

Because of the concept of risk versus reward - and the concept of a skill ceiling. Just like melee DPS need to land positionals and use oGCDs optimally, healing DPS requires you to understand when to be in cleric and when not to be. If Cleric (or its cooldown, really) were removed, it would lower the skill ceiling of healing.

First of all, my point is that the the process of healing while dpsing is a risk as it is as a matter of tactic: you dps instead of heal and you put the the team to a risk to improve the run. Which I'm TOTALLY fine about it.

However, what I meant by "easing it up" is by making it meta: removing Cleric stance and making MND a single stat will, in essence, make it even more risky because you are no more stopped by swapping stances. Since this game is 99% about dps (and you can't say this is not true), if they ever removed the satnce healers will also be able to do healing AND dps without swaps or whatsoever and without any drawbacks from doing both actions at once, the risk will become even higher but also become mandatory. (which is a debatable matter: I honestly don't like the dps-healers but I'm also fine doing it, but it's not the focal point)

In short my question is simply one: "Why not simply allow MND to do both spell dmg and healing for healers, and and remove essentially the needless fat around it?"

Infact...

...That's not the case for the VIT change, as it doesn't change that tanks need to know when to be in each stance. (If anything, the VIT change probably lowers the skill ceiling for healers more than tanks, as it means tanks won't need to be topped up quite as much for moderately powerful busters.)

It actually changes a lot if you think about it. Infact thanks to the changes, tanks will now essentially be simplified into VIT and remove the "fat" about the complexity and actually award more risk because with maxed out VIT on a tank they can FINALLY dish out more dps, probably even in Sword Oath or without Grit, without losing much in return. And even while on their tanking stance the damage they'll dish out will be (probably) higher than before and also be able to survive longer. Survive and dps at the same time, without the need of losing any single HP

Basically, they made tanks "tanks" again and made their main stat beneficial at last.

Yes you lose 20% damage reduction as a PLD or DRK, but with full out Vit you have more than enough to maintain yourself AND dish out a lot of dps without any drawbacks, enhancing the risk factor. Warriors are on another whole level.
It would be the same for healers: with one stat they can easily do both healing and dps, but on the other hand they'd be constantly doing that and without any drawbacks. Right now, the drawback for healer is called "20% less healing" and while I think it's a risky yet rewarding tactic, I find this only "artificially hard" rather than normally hard.

[Remus]

because if one game does it one way, they all should./s
you can continue to be a sub par healer.

I don't know about one game almost all MMOs that adopt this combat system have it this way where healers are there to just heal if you DPS you generally lose quite a bit of your mana and tank dies quickly FFXIV is just the weird one...

[KaitlanKela]

Honestly, I'm cool with CS for healers. It raises the skill ceiling and differentiates the good from the bad (or lazy/learning) healers.

If I could change anything, I would make it to where tanks have a similar skill that swaps VIT with STR that works identical to CS, and have everything scale of STR still.

It would turn Tanks into DPS when they weren't tanking. Of course, it would make it completely impossible for them to tank at all while in it, so they'd have to take it off to MT or pick up adds or whatever. But, basically a healer becomes worthless as a healer in CS so I don't see why giving tanks a similar mechanic would be undoable. In fights where only one tank is necessary it would be golden. It would be a little cumbersome to use because tanks are also dealing with offensive/defensive stances, but, like CS, it would just raise the skill ceiling significantly.

ETA: However, I'm confident that the devs have thought of this and decided against it for whatever reason. So it's basically just a musing of mine - don't expect it to happen.

[KaitlanKela]

I don't know about one game almost all MMOs that adopt this combat system have it this way where healers are there to just heal if you DPS you generally lose quite a bit of your mana and tank dies quickly FFXIV is just the weird one...

Even if every other game in the world played that way, FFXIV does not have to play that way. In fact, I like the way FFXIV is set up, it's unique. If they made encounters that required 100% healing, I would get behind it, but they don't so I'll fill that time with something useful, thanks.

Don't hold your breath for SE "fixing" broken healers. To them (and most of the playerbase) they're not broken.