Wish FF14 would transition to FFE job/skill system

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who? Admittedly, SE took from Everquest, but in your example you are falsely claiming that SE took the idea from Blizzard, which is not the case. Sorry to nitpick. Not trying to be rude either. I just had to clear that up cause it really grinded my gears. lol



Do we need classes dedicated to crowd control only? We have numerous actions for crowd control. Paralyze, Sleep, Bind, Slow, Silence, Stun, Reduced Evasion, Decreased Attack Power, Decreased Movement Speed, etc. and most jobs have some, if not all, of these associated with attacks, or actions that they can perform, and we also have enfeebling potions that can apply these debuffs to mobs. There is also enmity generating actions, and enmity reducing actions, which are forms of CC.

So again, why do we need a job that is dedicated to CC?

Luckily bosses are immune to a lot of those. Trash is useless in this game, trash is only good for slowing you down. This game cannot support a dedicated CC class because mostly everything except bosses are harmless wastes of time.

In other older games, trash monsters not only dropped loot but were harder then the bosses themselves. They would mez you, charm you, summon powerful beings, knock back, and not just be a giant HP sack of meat.

no, i act like changing the main way fighting is done this late in the game is a bad idea, and again, a balancing nightmare. regardless of what others have said other games have, they have some form of balance in them, exactly how much varies.

I don't see any "change" just adding things on a system that is already in place. The system is so bland it allows little to nothing, adding more traits and class mixing would go far into the games life. However, the systems for traits and such are already in place.

The game is already unbalanced, classes are way better then some in some areas. Traits and such allows the developers to give those classes new ways to play: Sure, there will always be a meta and best build. However, doing this will give players more variety and more to work with and more dear I say.. Fun?

All I see here though are excuses, what do you suggest they do? Stick with the same game for years and add nothing?

[Ashkendor]

This thread was serious until this guy opened his mouth.

Yeah, pretty much.

Dragon Nest

All vastly different styles of combat. All great in their own ways. None enforce the trinity.

Bad example. The trinity is very much present in Dragon Nest. You can get by in lesser content like dungeons and even nests without a dedicated healer or tank if your players are decently skilled and don't just facetank everything (mostly due to iframes and HP recovery items) but you'd never ever go into a raid without them. Actually, the tanking meta is pretty similar there to what FFXIV's currently is; you can load down a Crusader or a Guardian with a buttload of damage gear and still be a viable tank.

[SaitoHikari]

+1 for Dragon Nest being a bad example of a trinity-less game, and I say this as a forum moderator for that game (along with Ashkendor above). That game just doesn't enforce the trinity setup in parties, but classes are still designed around it.

There was a period of time over the past 2-3 years where new classes took on hybrid roles, but it's for that same reason most people that play DN consider the class balancing to have flown out the window during that time period. Hell, in the developers' attempt to make PvE actually playable for the 60% of classes that would NEVER be taken to raids as a result of the broken hybrid classes (and the poorly thought out class balancing that happened shortly after as a response to those classes simply existing), the game actually went back into a strict trinity system when they overhauled every class in the game half a year ago.

It ticked off a lot of people, particularly those that bandwagoned the really broken hybrid classes, especially...
- Crusaders (now DPS) - formerly an even more broken version of FFXIV Warrior with the highest burst damage in the game, that completely invalidated the designated 'pure' tank classes Guardian and Destroyer
- Inquisitor (now DPS)/Light Bringer (now Healer) - both classes which were basically FFXIV Scholar without a Cleric Stance mechanic and also had some of the highest burst damage in the game, which basically invalidated the designated 'pure' healer classes Saint and Physician

...But it's been several months since the overhaul happened and the DN community generally agrees that reverting back to a strict trinity system for classes was a necessary thing. I ironically saw more variety in class population in that game in the past half year after classes were reorganized into a trinity setup, than I had in the two years before that.

[Kaze3434]

snip.
I don't see any "change" just adding things on a system that is already in place. The system is so bland it allows little to nothing, adding more traits and class mixing would go far into the games life. However, the systems for traits and such are already in place.
The game is already unbalanced, classes are way better then some in some areas. Traits and such allows the developers to give those classes new ways to play: Sure, there will always be a meta and best build. However, doing this will give players more variety and more to work with and more dear I say.. Fun?

i find it funny that there doesnt seem to be any company that has done what you suggested, telling me pretty much all companies that make mmos think that your idea of "throw a completely different battle style into an already established battle style" is very very bad idea.
on another note, the fact that you say what i have bolded shows you know having certain things in game will do nothing at all to change how the game is played. not sure why you tried to follow that up with the "more variety" when there would be none. also, everyone has different requirements for fun.

edit- hey look, an example of a game that did it, and it pretty much failed. thanks saito.

[File2ish]

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who?

How is the trinity defined? Just focusing on the 3 roles, or is it the 3 roles being necessary for forming groups? Sure it had Tanks, DDs, and healers... But it also had support jobs (see: Bard) and hybrids (such as Red Mage, Dancer), so where would those fit in?

FFXI also had sub jobs; which, it can be argued, made every job a hybrid (and broke some jobs, Ninja tanks anyone?). So was it the trinity?

The way I see it, FFXI did not use the trinity.

[Reynhart]

The problem with balance is that people put far too much emphasis on this...more than the game itself, in fact.
Yes, some DPS might be lower than others, or tanks can survive less or do less damage, but since almost every "usual" setup can clear anything in the hands of good player, it really doesn't matter that much. Moreover, since 95% of the content is done via Duty Finder, where you can't chose the jobs in your party, or static, where you probably play with people you know, and who probably have no issue letting you play the job you want, it's easy to progress with any job.

And yet, you can have some sort of customization while bypassing the "that build is the absolute best". I've suggested this in another topic, with tanks as a primary example. Create a MT build and an OT built. Since there is nothing to say that "MTing is better than OTing", and these two need lots of differents things, you coul at least have two buils depending of what the player likes to play the most.

[Callback]

The difficulty with a system that doesn't enforce it is that if you show up in a group as a tank, you won't be allowed to tank. People will pull ahead of you, and will ignore any pleas to follow the system. Just thinking about it is giving me flashbacks to dungeons and scenarios in WoW: Mists of Pandaria, where the mobs did so little damage and died so easily that there was no need for any sort of role system. It was incredibly frustrating, because my character was built to be able to survive, and to prevent other people from taking damage, but all of the utility I brought was ignored, and thrown out the window. And especially considering how little damage tanks did natively, I felt utterly useless in that content, which made the game utterly unenjoyable.

Our guild healer experienced the same thing. Classes had so many self-heals that they trivialized most content, and left her Smiting and Penancing to contribute what minuscule amounts of DPS a Disc Priest could. It actually drove us to drop WoW for a while very early in the expansion, because our favorite activity (small group content) was not at all fun for us.

In a system where there is no enforcement of roles, everyone becomes DPS. Tanks aren't allowed to tank, and if they try, they're left behind. Healers aren't allowed to heal, and if they try, they're scolded for not DPSing. Everyone is expected to Zerg rush trash and bosses to death, and there's nothing unique about any of it.

You seem to fail to understand. Have you played any of the games I listed? I'm talking games with combat systems designed to avoid forcing that trinity, not more WoW clones that just happen to allow any comp. Heals are optional and generally somewhat small or limited because if you're good you won't get hit. Tanking isn't required since everyone can dodge. If you do want to tank, you generally get a block, counter, grapple, etc. that can be used for that, to hold the enemy in position or keep people behind you safe. Otherwise you might want to be more of a berserker archetype, with massive AoE on your attacks, big damage, and a huge health pool. You would have tons of super armor to make sure you can get them off, but slow animations that make it much easier to get hit. It's not like XIV or WoW where everything in the game has 100% super armor 100% of the time and mobs deal flat out unavoidable damage to whomever they see fit as a target. THAT'S the kind of system that forces a trinity. Other games have combat systems that emphasize skill in aiming your attacks, following up with good combos, recognizing attacks, and dodging the enemy. Damage is a punishment for screwing up. There are still roles, but the roles are different, and not so rigid. Having a class with lower damage but massive AoE lockdown potential makes a sort of controller whose job it is to keep the mos in one place and control the battle to make it easier for allies. Duelists specialize in focusing on one big problem mob and engaging it 1v1, locking it in combat to remove it from the fight the rest of the team is having. Supports focus on buffs or debuffs, sacrificing their own damage for large enhancements to parties. There are solo-friendly classes that have quick attacks and are great at dodging so they can stay alive while on their own as they push through the content.

And most importantly the combat is engaging. You actually have to play the game performing the actions, not just letting your character do its thing while you plug in an order for it to use its skills. Timing, aim, reaction, all important. The combat is active.

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who? Admittedly, SE took from Everquest, but in your example you are falsely claiming that SE took the idea from Blizzard, which is not the case. Sorry to nitpick. Not trying to be rude either. I just had to clear that up cause it really grinded my gears. lol

Never said they invented it, just said the industry as a whole has been flooded with countless games in the same style ever since its popularity boom, trying to copy its success.

[UltimateAoe2]

This thread was serious until this guy opened his mouth.

I mean, every time you see his name in any thread, you know it'll go from serious to bye bye.

' 3'b?

[Jeykama]

The more I play FF Explorers anyway, the more I see trinity system being way more efficient than everyone being hybrid. A real tank on some of those bosses is so very helpful (shoutouts to my lv50 Black Knight monster buddy) and some eidolons have really nasty moves that are almost impossible to dodge if they're focusing you and extremely damaging to cloth-users ('ucking Fenrir clone multicharges). Not to mention if a monster keeps bouncing around it's impossible to hit specific body parts for breaks. Sure everyone can equip Cure/Esuna and hybridize to a degree but that's a significant chunk of your ability allotment which could be used towards higher echelon abilities within your specialty.

It's very much like FFXI except for the having easy-mode for solo, hard-mode for multiplayer part and less gear-dependent. Not sure the option to hybridize a bit would do anything for FFXIV except open up cross-class skills to being more nerfed than they are now.

[Ashkendor]

And most importantly the combat is engaging. You actually have to play the game performing the actions, not just letting your character do its thing while you plug in an order for it to use its skills. Timing, aim, reaction, all important. The combat is active.

To be fair, most of the games you mentioned are in the Action MMO genre, which is separate from the MMORPG genre.

It's a completely different combat style, and FFXIV can't emulate that without a major overhaul.