Hardcore is not a dirty word

[AmyRae]

maybe not the MMOs you've played, but i sure have played, and are still playing, one mmo that is quite complex.

Don't mistake the term complexity for difficulty. The rules to chess aren't complex at all. It doesn't mean you'll beat Kasparov on your first go. MMOs aren't very complex, either. It doesn't mean you can do everything with ease, but it's not rocket science. The concepts are simple enough most anyone can understand.

[Aenarion]

Don't mistake the term complexity for difficulty. The rules to chess aren't complex at all. It doesn't mean you'll beat Kasparov on your first go. MMOs aren't very complex, either. It doesn't mean you can do everything with ease, but it's not rocket science. The concepts are simple enough most anyone can understand.

wait, are you seriously categorically denying the existence of complex MMOs?

[Xello]

Generally, true complexity in an mmorpg is a symptom of poor design. Usually characteristic of over abundance of stat/menu screens, lengthy processes to accomplish relatively simple ends, this is a failing on a developers part.

MMORPG concepts are supposed to be easy to understand and pick up, but demanding to master. I think the game is in a pretty good space with this atm. XI is filling the niche that want to spend all day waiting for a party because a single tiny river crab will kick your ass if you attempt it alone. XIV is clearly supposed to be (and at its best as) a hybrid casual/hardcore mix. I'd hate to give up following the storys of the game, and leave a world I enjoy being a part of because my job or school prevented me jumping on for some casual based progress.

It's not an underhanded or cheap thing to try and appeal to a larger playerbase. It's in no way greedy or simply money grubbing, it's attempting to allow as many people as possible be a part of the world you've created.

People are playing for a lot of reasons, lore, roleplay, hardcores, casuals. They all want to be a part of Eorzea, it's not really fair to shift the nature of the entire world to better accommodate just a fraction of the playerbase.

I understand what you're wanting from the game, but you know as well as I that in time, SE will give you all the hard grindan, low drop rating, hardcore content you could want, Because the hardcore are a valued and essential part of the communities makeup, No reason to deny the other demographics their time and fun here.

[Aenarion]

xello, didn't you get the memo? no reasonable posts and level-headed thinking allowed in here

[Synapse]

Ah, The Hardcore Vs Casual debate again, this was the topic 3 months ago and i see its back up again.

Anyway, my version of Hardcore is as follows.. and time is really a factor.
-Skills(knowing their jobs) - gained by spending time in game for the purpose of factoring which skills would give the best result. Building a "strategy set" which could be set of skills or set of gears for certain situation.

-Adaptation(strategy for various situation) - Learning from various different situation, taking risk in fights sacrificing reward for knowledge, trying new strategy to get the best way to defeat a target.

-Preparation(planning things in detail) - Choosing a strategy and sticking by it without changing it in the middle because someone needed to get "win" or certain "chest" or wanna auto follow. Spending whatever time they have in game efficiently without fooling around or changing plans mid way.

-Patience(things come for those who put effort and time) - You cant have everything you want right away, if this is the case, the game would be over in matter of month because everyone has everything. Better item should come from events that are difficult and not "do it once and get the ultimate sword of destruction on the first day"

hardcore/casual does not mean time, but how they spend their time in game. 1) they talk with ls do few leves/have fun and maybe repeat this routine often, 2)they sit, trying to see what skills would generate more hate and what gears should i have it during certain tanking", and make macros, next day, test it out on mobs to if they working as intended. Both could have the same playtime but their activities are different.

Even in FFXIV casuals depend on Hardcores to give them strategy on how to do stuff, look at how the forums were during Dzmael Darkhold release. Players got strategy from those players who spend time to do trial and error(sacrificing their rewards and time) for others so others can also get the item. Even FFXIV fan sites gets updated mainly by Hardcore who spend time formulating strategies and crunching numbers.

There are bad players on both sides but imo hardcore mainly means players that are trying to get the max potential out of a game, then there are few of those who leech off and complain.

[AmyRae]

wait, are you seriously categorically denying the existence of complex MMOs?

MMOs can have complexity, but they aren't complex to play. It's not like, say, a fighting game where there are a hundred different combos for your character that have to be performed with exact timing.

Fighting in FFXIV is not complex at all by comparison, especially if you divide up the activities into distinct roles. If you're a tank, wear lots of armor and try to get the mobs to fight you. If you're a healer, cast the cure spells on the wounded guy. What's so complex about that?

[Aenarion]

MMOs can have complexity, but they aren't complex to play. It's not like, say, a fighting game where there are a hundred different combos for your character that have to be performed with exact timing.

Fighting in FFXIV is not complex at all by comparison, especially if you divide up the activities into distinct roles. If you're a tank, wear lots of armor and try to get the mobs to fight you. If you're a healer, cast the cure spells on the wounded guy. What's so complex about that?

It's not, but then again I wasn't referring to FFXIV :P

[AmyRae]

It's not, but then again I wasn't referring to FFXIV :P

Then why won't you mention the title? Or is it the MMO you play in your mind?

[Davorok]

I feel the idea that FFXI was so "Hardcore" is actually wrong. I found it to be quite "Casual Friendly". Let me try to explain.

I played XI off & on for about 6 years. I leveled several jobs, I completed almost all of the sidequests from every city/area, I completed RoZ, CoP and about half of ToAU & WoG before I quit for good. I never did any so called "EndGame" content mostly because I was in no rush to do so (and it required more time than I was willing or could invest).

I enjoyed all of the game content (minus endgame) at my own leisure. In XI's hey day, I could log on any evening and/or weekend and always find a grind party or LS friends to do missions with or a friend or 2 to do some quests or just Duo/Trio for a bit (Usually involved farming for something, skilling up or just having fun) or I would Hunt NM's and try to solo them, or I would solo farm to make some gil, or even do a little cooking.

There was always plenty of things to do and I did most of it and enjoyed all of it (except douchie players), but it took me years to get to where I was. Now I realize some would say I was a hardcore player for sticking with it so long and for trying to do all of the content, but the game allowed me to play extremely casually and eventually I did the same content everyone else did (and would have done it all if I had played longer).

XI was never "Hardcore" except to those that wanted to grind to "EndGame" as fast as possible. Then when populations began to decrease, it did become harder to find a Grind PT, and harder to do Missions/quests outside of friendly LS's and so SE changed the grind to be much easier since only the "Hardcores" were still playing (rushing new jobs to endgame).

I need to hurry up and make my point here (if I even have one).

I think it is this: XI was always both Casual and Hardcore depending how you played.

XIV is also both Casual & Hardcore depending how you play but in XIV, there was and still is not enough to do to make either playstyle happy. No Endgame for the hardcore grinders and no real adventure for the Casuals.

Hopefully SE will continue to add more content that Hardcores can burn through and Casuals can take their time on. We will all arrive at the same destination, it's just that some folks teleport there and others take a Chocobo (some even walk).

[Aenarion]

Then why won't you mention the title? Or is it the MMO you play in your mind?

Eve Online

this is old, but still very much holds true today:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...rningcurve.jpg