Never Make Your Players Have to "Find the Fun"

[Felis]

Why will someone that the devs say "This is fun. Do it!" instead of "Here are some contents. Look what give you the most fun." ?

Finding the fun yourself is part of the fun.

[AnaviAnael]

Given the OPs complaint and the general support it's getting I'm pretty sure most of these people wouldn't touch MMOs with a ten foot pole if it ever went back to its niche roots. MMOs of old were even grindier(in fact the grind was 90% of the "compelling" gameplay) and you could do almost nothing without a group.

I have to agree with this. I don't think most people nowadays would want to wait 24-72 hours for a mob to spawn, which had a low drop rate for its treasure, and could only be claimed by one group.

People need to accept that grinds are part of the MMO genre. However, that doesn't mean that all grinds are equally entertaining.

[Zadist]

I think that the biggest problem I am having right now is that when I log on there is nothing I can just get into and have fun with. Maybe it is because I have been playing a lot of single player games recently and Blade and Soul due to the drought of things to do and am getting used to the instant gratification of fun that comes with that. Pop in a disc and I am having fun and getting into something from the moment I turn on the console. It didn't always used to be this way.

[Lexia]

Given the OPs complaint and the general support it's getting I'm pretty sure most of these people wouldn't touch MMOs with a ten foot pole if it ever went back to its niche roots. MMOs of old were even grindier(in fact the grind was 90% of the "compelling" gameplay) and you could do almost nothing without a group.

Mind you I'd argue that since the audience of MMOs of old was so small that it couldn't have been that compelling to the vast majority of people. They were niche games for a reason.

I don't play a lot of MMOs they really not my style the last one I played was also by SE which was XI and compared to XIV, XI was way more of a grind then XIV will ever be so nothing in XIV really bothers me. Actually wish kind of had more elements from XI but from the posts in this thread such as OP would be creating even more complaints then.

[Purrfectstorm]

Given the OPs complaint and the general support it's getting I'm pretty sure most of these people wouldn't touch MMOs with a ten foot pole if it ever went back to its niche roots. MMOs of old were even grindier(in fact the grind was 90% of the "compelling" gameplay) and you could do almost nothing without a group.

Mind you I'd argue that since the audience of MMOs of old was so small that it couldn't have been that compelling to the vast majority of people. They were niche games for a reason.

You actually aren't understanding my complaint. I didn't complain about grinding at all. I complained about not being able to grind whenever I want because of lockouts and time gates. I have no problem with grinding. I've done 2 Zetas and finished my i210 relic last week. I grinded for every Lucis tool when they were current, have almost all my jobs at max level, and have done every quest (minus a few job quests from the non-max level jobs), including the fishing quests.

As for finding groups inconvenient, you're only half correct, because my complaint isn't so much that finding groups is inconvenient it's that time gates make finding groups MORE inconvenient than need be. For example, will people who have cleared A1S this week run it again this week? Will people who have their loot/farthing from Void Ark run that again this week? NO. SE is actively making it harder for people to find groups for content by removing players from the pool of people we could group with.

Your basic argument is the same argument that gets thrown about all the time on these forums whenever someone doesn't like something - "If you don't like one (or a few) particular things in this game then this game or this whole genre is not for you."

Now that I've broken this argument down to it's essence, I hope you can see why it's wrong; I love FFXIV and I love MMOs. I think this game could be better and, in fact, I need for it to be better, because there are many other compelling ways to spend one's time. When I quit playing, it won't necessarily be because I hate this game or this genre, it will most likely be that there are other games or activities that I find MORE enjoyable. If I had infinite money and infinite time, I wouldn't ask SE to change a thing.

I don't play a lot of MMOs they really not my style the last one I played was also by SE which was XI and compared to XIV, XI was way more of a grind then XIV will ever be so nothing in XIV really bothers me. Actually wish kind of had more elements from XI but from the posts in this thread such as OP would be creating even more complaints then.

Actually, I liked FFXI better than FFXIV, because grinds aren't my issue, as I stated above. There are reasons I play FFXIV over FFXI though - FFXIV is prettier, more populated, I got to start from the beginning (of ARR at least), and crafting is more fun (to name just a few reasons). The main thing I don't like is that I can't do the things I want to do as often as I want to do them. I'd love to grind until one job is BiS, then tackle the next job, etc. Instead, the game tells me "nope, you are done for the day or week." Sure, there are plenty of other things to do but I'm not always in the mood to do those things. I want more freedom in the game. Removing lockouts would not at all discourage me from playing because I couldn't grind enough to do everything I want to do before the next patch.

[Purrfectstorm]

Also, I would suggest that you not get dismissive of folks that happen to have a different opinion than you and are enjoying the game, as their enjoyment is just as valid as your lack thereof.

There are appropriate ways of voicing one's opinion. People who voice their opinion in rude or insulting ways will absolutely get dismissed. You're right that the opinion of others is valid but that also means that others have to treat my opinion as valid. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Moomba33]

Personally I prefer time gates to RNG.
With time gates I can decide whether or not I want to bother hitting my cap for the week/day/whatever whereas with RNG my progress may be hindered by bad luck.

The only time based gates that really bother me are the ones for gathering nodes. I found them tolerable in ARR since they were only for max level crafting items for the most part. I hate that Heavensward has incorporated materials from time based nodes into leveling crafts.

[Purrfectstorm]

I think that the biggest problem I am having right now is that when I log on there is nothing I can just get into and have fun with. Maybe it is because I have been playing a lot of single player games recently and Blade and Soul due to the drought of things to do and am getting used to the instant gratification of fun that comes with that. Pop in a disc and I am having fun and getting into something from the moment I turn on the console. It didn't always used to be this way.

I think you understand where I'm coming from. A lot of people are taking issue with my thread title "finding the fun" but from my experience on these forums it's because some people are very literal minded (or intentionally interpret things literally in order to be argumentative). Finding the fun is a term that came from D&D and I used it as a hook and to make a connection to FFXIV dev mindsets. A developer is basically the dungeon master so this is not a stretch. But a more appropriate title for this thread that might appease the literalists is "waiting for the fun."

It takes inordinate time to find a group for endgame content and a lot of this is because of endgame lockouts. I can't just log on and do my nodes because they only spawn at certain times. Etc. Etc. This game simply does not let players "jump into content" whenever they want. It's a major, major design flaw. This game is great don't get me wrong, but that has got to be changed moving forward (I'll add "in my opinion" just to please the literalists who cannot interpret this to be my opinion without my saying so).

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I don't think grinds themselves are the main complaint, but the lack of variety when it comes to grinds. It doesn't make me happy knowing that 3.2 grinds are just going to be another 2 dungeons for expert roulette, a new tomestone with the usual 450 cap, and another part of Alexander. Variety is the spice of etc.

[Ilitsa]

I'd be happy with just having tomes tied to class, rather than character, so we could choose to gear up multiple classes per lockout