"Dark Knight: Tanking On The Edge"

[Jpec07]

Makes sense. I can definitely see a few situations where dropping it for BW would be especially helpful (4+ mob pulls where DA-AD becomes more viable than DA-SE, any time you use LD, etc.).

[Syzygian]

I will give you credit for being the first guide I've seen to suggest dropping Grit for MP management. But I'm not going to argue this very much, because it will very quickly devolve into the Str/Vit debate, which is one that I am quite frankly very tired of. I just wanted to comment that your note about it not having any mechanical impact is technically incorrect, because SE won't restore HP without it.

Also, while it is not improper to play with Grit "as a cooldown" (provided you can hold hate and juggle your cooldowns effectively enough to make up for the lost mitigation), I will also posit that it is neither incorrect to play with Grit "as a stance." It may complicate mana management, but the extra mitigation provided in raw reduction and self-heals is roughly equal to what you get from turning it off to DPS faster.

I did not neglect to mention that SE's healing component is tied to Grit anywhere in the guide, to my knowledge. This is a very very small mechanic however and one that requires you to be taking very little spike damage of any kind for healers to take notice, as (with Grit on and full STR gear) you're only recovering about 1.8-1.9K every 3 GCDs, and that's if you're spamming it and neglecting SC and DE. Its not like WAR losing Inner Beast, for instance. DRK's mechanics are tied to being hit, not to having tank stance on. I also didn't discuss stat weights for any reason or mention any kind of STR/VIT debate, nor did I say that having Grit on is bad play. It depends on the situation. In a fight like Thordan for instance, TBs are frequent enough that I'm only able to spend about 40-50% of the fight out of Grit. In A3S you can spend 90% of the fight out of Grit. In A1S you don't need it at all (unless you're solo-tanking Faust). It really depends on the encounter.

Most newer tanks will hang on to their tank stance for dear life, I wanted to advertise using it minimally in this guide as it is generally more efficient once you and your group are comfortable with it. The general message I want to convey is that you should do what you and your group are comfortable with, but you can maximize efficiency in many ways by finding opportunities to turn it off.

Great write up, I will be referring future DRK's here. One thing I would like to state is that the DRK MT/ WAR OT combo does not awkwardly include the Enmity combo. Any Warrior worth his Loincloth will be using the SE combo, despite the loss of 20 potency, SE grants more DPS overtime them alternating SE/BB. Even when MT, War's will only BB when the aggro gets low or as the second combo of their opener. I raid with DRK MT and we never have this issue.

I believe that is a DPS loss iirc? If Maim and SE are maintained BB combo is a DPS gain, so most WARs will alternate them unless SP is needed for an upcoming TB/raid-wide hit, as I understand it. If you spam SE you're losing 20 potency to refresh Maim/SE well before they're in danger of falling, are you not?

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

If you are concerned with dropping Grit, start off by doing it just on the bosses of the EX roulette dungeons. Just a little at first, ease into it. As you get comfortable with it, push your threshold, go tank normal Alex and drop grit after grabbing a reasonable emnity lead, or really push it and drop grit after 1 emnity combo. You may be surprised at how smoothly the class plays without Grit.

OR

You can do what I did, and get involved in a bet with your co-tank just before raid night and go full monty and hold on for dear life. Then 3 weeks later, when your healer says "Hey you died there, why weren't you in tank stance" You can respond, "Well, I haven't been in tank stance for a month now, why did you derp this time?"

[Cynric]

snip

I'll check for you when I get home, but I've been doing my opener for quite a while and my potion buff always falls off 1 second after I do my second soul eater.


Also I don't know about you but whenever I run with folks litany + TA are up fairly early. Litany is usually up right before I scourge when I play with Dragoons. And going by the Dragoon rotation thread it's basically their first OGCD they use. Trick Attack will vary. There are Ninjas who Suiton on the pull and TA right away, there are some who TA later. I'm not going to try to delay my higher damaging moves to line up perfectly with Trick Attack. At most all my moves will be buffed by TA, At the least my Soul Eaters and C&S will be.

If Scourge does or doesn't get buffed by Slashing down it's not the end of the world. Scourge potency comes from the DoT, the on hit damage is nice, but nothing compared to having the DoT tick earlier while being buffed by a potion. The Soul Eaters will be buffed which I think should make up for losing a tiny bit of potency on the hit of scourge, hard, syphon, And they're happening earlier, and not being delayed with a pointless Delirium.

Hypercharge by any machinist that knows what they're doing will be up pre-pull, so that's nothing to worry about. Balance is going to be up on pull and drawn pre pull. Once again nothing to worry about, in fact you're losing time on Hypercharge buff + Balance buff + litany, if the players of those classes are following the best usage of those abilities if you delay your highest damage by starting with Delirium.

As for Plunge, I'm sure our mileage may vary as I don't doubt we have differing connection speeds. My Plunges are always like this Unmend(plunge) , I unmend , boss starts moving towards me, I plunge right away, and I'm standing with my party on the edge of the bosses hitbox and have to go through it anyway. I'd rather just Potion while running through it and start with scourge than deal with plunges animation delay right there.

[Iagainsti]

I believe that is a DPS loss iirc? If Maim and SE are maintained BB combo is a DPS gain, so most WARs will alternate them unless SP is needed for an upcoming TB/raid-wide hit, as I understand it. If you spam SE you're losing 20 potency to refresh Maim/SE well before they're in danger of falling, are you not?

Yes, when fighting a standstill enemy, like a dummy, it is a dps loss of 20 potency. Most true fights where dps numbers matter, Im not talking roulette duties for sure, where mechanics can and will interrupt combos, the loss of Se and/or maim is more detrimental to your dps than that extra 20 potency. Also constantly being inside an SE combo allows you the opportunity to drop an quick SP when needed. I can't speak for the whole community, but I know my playstyle and watching many Warrior POV vids showcase that the majority of end game Warriors will drop the BB combo only to maintain aggro. Even the 20 drop in potency is divided by a 10 point drop on Maim and a 10 point drop on SE compared to SS and BB, so with the proper amount of Crit rating, you see the same numbers anyways.

[Syzygian]

snip

I will edit in as an alternate OT opener for a high-SkS build (2.38 GCD assumed).

[Cynric]

I will edit in as an alternate OT opener for a high-SkS build (2.38 GCD assumed).

I just got home i'll check my skill speed and GCD for you with and without blood weapon. I have no idea how high my speed is right now but I don't think its that high

edit: 605 Speed , 2.4 GCD, 2.16GCD with blood weapon. A bit higher than I thought but I'm not geared for speed. Just using pure eso + thordan weapon

[Cynric]

I think it's worth noting that if you TP floor, you can use Mana to spam unmend and use unleash if it procs to at least do some DPS while TP floored so you can regenerate your TP back, and that during that time you should use mostly unmend if Blood price is on (due to gaining mana returns) or more physical skills while Blood Weapon is on ( since bw is positive on TP, you can safely do most skills while TP flooring.)

[Jim_Berry]

I've been getting more and more comfortable with DRK. Unlike my PLD, I even put up learning parties just so I can get a feel for it on a greater level. The only thing I still am NOT comfortable with is Grit.

While I'm no stranger to dropping it, I see a LOT of DRKs keep it off for a long time. I'm hesitant to leave it off for more than 2 combos with a pack of 4+ mobs. On a boss, it's easy~peezy until I need healing and/or when our healer dies (I solo'd the Wall in Library as DRK starting at about 28%, using Potions to assist with MP due to me getting under a panic state while using Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain as well as Dark Arts + Souleater with Grit up for the self heals).

As PLD, I kinda did my own thing and didn't care (pure VIT, for example) so long as I kept the mob(s) on me with 100% mitigation. As DRK, I'm actually "learning" it and trying different ways to play it.

[Jim_Berry]

I just got home i'll check my skill speed and GCD for you with and without blood weapon. I have no idea how high my speed is right now but I don't think its that high

edit: 605 Speed , 2.4 GCD, 2.16GCD with blood weapon. A bit higher than I thought but I'm not geared for speed. Just using pure eso + thordan weapon

Noob question: How do I check my GCD speed?